Martial Practices inferior to Rituals????

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think I just conciously noticed something which bothers me about Martial Practices.. they are hands down inferior to there closest ritual analog. A mage buys an off the rack item then uses enchant item to create absolutely any magic item in the book. The martial practictioner... needs several separate practices to create Armor and Weapons and other items ... the weapon and amor are only the most borinig of magic and the other items not magical at all?
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I think I just conciously noticed something which bothers me about Martial Practices.. they are hands down inferior to there closest ritual analog. A mage buys an off the rack item then uses enchant item to create absolutely any magic item in the book. The martial practictioner... needs several separate practices to create Armor and Weapons and other items ... the weapon and amor are only the most borinig of magic and the other items not magical at all?

The fact that Martial Practices were introduced into Martial Power 2 in order to fill out pages in the the book, but was never mentioned or touched on in any other product since... says right there that WotC didn't really care about them once they made them. So absolutely no effort was made for checks and balances with what they did or how the stacked up against Rituals (not that Rituals were ever strongly worked on by WotC either).

If you want to use them, you'll probably have to do some work on them yourself... because no one else at WotC ever had any designs to do so.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The fact that Martial Practices were introduced into Martial Power 2 in order to fill out pages in the the book, but was never mentioned or touched on in any other product since... says right there that WotC didn't really care about them once they made them. So absolutely no effort was made for checks and balances with what they did or how the stacked up against Rituals (not that Rituals were ever strongly worked on by WotC either).

If you want to use them, you'll probably have to do some work on them yourself... because no one else at WotC ever had any designs to do so.
So that I feel like I might be starting from scratch isnt a mistake... the idea of them isnt horrible and I am discovering my ideas start to bounce off of things in the Arthurian Legend/Birthright setting including Blood-line abilities. Healing surge costs fit fairly well in there.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I am really suprised there werent any intimidation based martial practices or did I miss some? .... Seems to show how underdeveloped they are.
 

pemerton

Legend
I don't use Martial Practices in my game - I treat them more as adjudication guidelines for p 42 purposes - but I know that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has experience with them.
 

I don't use Martial Practices in my game - I treat them more as adjudication guidelines for p 42 purposes - but I know that @Manbearcat has experience with them.

I have good experience and well-developed opinions of them as pemerton notes here. 2 of my PCs possess them in my game. I'll try to find some time this weekend to compose an analysis of them generally and the specific ones in use in my game.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That would be very handy... (and much appreciated)

Things I rather like about Martial Practices:

  1. Concept of being able to do things that push beyond the bounds of what can be normally done (ie i dont see it as supposed to provide the normal results of a skill check ). - The problem might really be determining which ones are just that since what you can do with a skill is potentially pretty big.
  2. Spending a Healing Surge for something valuable other than healing
  3. Naturalistic Open Ended Learning Process.
 
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Quickleaf

Legend
True20 used "skill challenges" (IIRC) that basically allowed you to take a +5 Difficulty penalty to do something really cool or beyond normal experience, such as searching a room without leaving any trace of your presence or intimidating a large group of people. I default to that rule-of-thumb when improving in my games, and sometimes charge a healing surge if it seems especially strenuous (so in essence everyone has martial practices).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yes I am thinking only some are inferior rituals the others seem like something it would be fair to replace exactly like you say Quickleaf.
 

I'm including only the Martial Practices that have seen use in my game. I'm going to grade these out on the following component parts:

1 - Skill Challenges
2 - Mundane Task Resolution
3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes; eg what Teleport (we are here...no we're actually there) and Divinations (I know little...oh wait, I know a lot/everything) do.

I'm going to use the Purple, Black, Blue of standard Charop accounting (key directly below) as all of these options generall fall within that spectrum. Full disclaimer: much of this analysis is subjective and is giong to depend on what percentage "screen time" the various component parts see in your play.

Purple: Situationally useful, but overall pretty meh.
Black (White given the common black background): OK. You could do worse than pick this.
Blue: Good stuff. You probably want this.

Tracker's Eye
From a few discrete markings, you learn astonishing information about the creatures you pursue.

1 - Skill Challenges - Although easily deployable and a + 5 untyped bonus, it is leveraged within the narrow confines of a Skill Challenge involving wilderness tracking of a foe compounded by what should only be a one-off use in said SC. Sometimes you will have scenarios where it can reasonably be applied twice, but the "tracking enemy" trope doesn't come up enough for it to be considerably valuable.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - + 5 untyped bonus, potentially used multiple times? I've had this scenario come to fruition a few times. Not bad.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - The knowledge check on here should afford the player/group with key information, if not outright access to metagame information (which I provide), about potential encounter difficulty. This allows players to strategize their deployment of Dailies, Item powers, Rituals, etc as they chase down their foe. Good stuff. Full of Aragorn awesome.


Survivor's Preparation
You prepare yourself and your companions for the dangers of cold or heat, adjusting clothing and lightening loads to make the environment more bearable.

1 - Skill Challenges - + 2 untyped for a Group Endurance check to resist environmental exposure that is basically open-descriptor enough to be applied in a myriad of situations? Yes, please. Full of Aragorn awesome.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - Ignore Endurance checks (Objective DC 26) for Frigid Cold/Stifling Heat every 8 hours or lose a healing surge. Narrow window of opportunity to apply, but certainly helpful.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - The "tolerate temperatures between -20 and 120 degrees Fahrenheit" has come up for me more than once in my current campaign. Lack of this ability caused the PCs to have to endure a fairly punitive condition/disease track twice. Having this ability in the future was a game-changer in that it rendered the same situation inert more than once in the future (including in the Abyss). However, not universally applicable.


Warded Campsite
You arrange tripwires, traps, and other devices so that you and your allies will know when an intruder approaches your campsite.

1 - Skill Challenges - This has come up once (would have come up twice but the PC didn't have it at the present time) and won an automatic success in the SC for the cost of a healing surge. Failure at the difficult check meant 1 failure accrued and a minion ambush costing the group 4 aggregate surges. Potent but extremely narrow use. Being able to use this with Thievery and Nature expands its applicability.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - NA

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - This is reserved for either classic D&D exploratory play or scene-based play with Transitition Scenes whereby resources are deployed/actions are taken to determine framing of the next scene . I don't run "random encounters" in 4e but if the players are in a dangerous area, many-a-times, I will pace the adventuring day with a thematically relevant encounter for campsite situations. This circumvents adjudication by Passive Perception and is an auto-win for the group so no surprise. Good stuff. Full of Aragorn awesome.


Reliable Balance
You can keep yourself stable when moving across any surface.

1 - Skill Challenges - Easily deployable, applicable to a myriad of situations, taking 10 on Abrobatics checks? That is 1 auto-success in the bag for a considerable variety of SCs. A scene worth of swashbuckling awesome.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - Same as above.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - Not so much. Maybe the rare scenario where there is a nigh-impossible, or extremely difficult, obstacle that must be tightroped across and can be passed on "take 10" and then the rest of the group can get across due to your efforts on the other side. But that is corner case enough to be irrelevant.


Uncanny Strength
You can dig deep within yourself to find the strength you need.

1 - Skill Challenges - See Reliable Balance above except sub "Achilles" awesome.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - Same as above.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - The "bend bars/lift gates/climb wall roll rewrote plot trajectory" is a corner case writ large.


Precise Forgery
Your falsified papers are resistant to even the closest scrutiny.

1 - Skill Challenges - This may seem more narrow than it is (and may be depending on your games). I've had to the PCs use this forvarious subterfuge/infiltration SCs; faked orders, land deeds, notarized bank notes, cargo manifests, warrants/bounties. This coupled with Alter Ego has seen effective use in plenty of Skill Challenges. Pretty good James Bond awesome.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - If its being used, its a one-off for a Skill Challenge or Transition.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - Need to bypass the obstinate chamberlain and talk to the King? Commanders orders from the front lines might get you in. Need to pit a noble against another noble? Need to dictate an army's strategically ineffective troop movements? A timely, well-done forgery may do the trick. Effective and applicable in a wide variety of circumstances.


Long-Distance Runner
You can run without stopping, pushing past your physical limits without risk of harm.

1 - Skill Challenges - This has been used one time in a single-player Skill Challenge when the horse died during egress. The player had enough of a lead in order to deploy this and make use of it for the rest of the SC duration. Its thematically nifty but extremely marginal in its usefulness. Mostly color.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - NA.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - Not a game-changer in any real fashion. This is very akin to classic Monk abilities in pre 4e. Thematically robust but mechanically deficient and in no-way serves as a force-multiplier for the team goal/success.


Decipher Script
You might not know the language, but with some time and effort, you can decipher the meaning of any writing.

1 - Skill Challenges - History or Streetwise expands its applicability so that is nice. However, the number of times it will come up in a Skill Challenge is limited; Seeking out the truename of a demon in an encient library is one recent one for my game. Gandalf-ey awesome.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - Not applicable enough to warrant relevance.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - Although you aren't going to be putting game-stopping elements (understand text or game comes to screeching halt) into action resolution, this can be helpful for reveals that allow PCs resources/assets/means to understand and prepare for a challenge before them (eg Tracker's Eye).


Alter Ego
With a little makeup and a bit of misdirection, you can appear to be anyone.

1 - Skill Challenges - This one has seen a ton of use by the Rogue in my game. It gives him considerable framing ability to initiate Skill Challenges to infiltrate, gather information, or plant something. CIA awesomeness. The Alter Ego Bluff check with + 5 bonus typically kicks off the Skill Challenge and then there will inevitably be a scenario where Bluff is used generally, rather than in the non-specific way inherent to Alter Ego, a second time. As such, I won't impose a Hard DC unless it is requested or the Skill Challenge requires it.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - NA.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - See above. The ability to re-frame no access, no information, and/or plant something is pretty powerful with this ability. Its the analog for the wizard spell in prior editions and the ritual here.


Word on the Street
You snoop around, greasing palms and making discreet inquiries to learn the information you seek.

1 - Skill Challenges - Streetwise checks to gather information in the stead oo all other knowledge checks while in a settlement/community? Are you kidding me? Ridiculously powerful. CIA awesomeness.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - See above but these sorts of scenarios for my game will exclusively be resolved by way of scene/SC. If your game doesn't feature SCs and rather just uses MTR, you can't beat an at-will sub of one of your strong skills for weaker skills.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - NA.


Peerless Exploration
You set off from your allies to gain a sense of your environs.

1 - Skill Challenges - The + 5 bonus to next Endurance check within 24 hours has seen plenty of use.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - NA

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - This is the ultimate in Ranger Scene Transition power. It is effectively a limited teleport. I don't stick to the granularity of square mile per square mile. Ranger deploys and either (i) asks questions (which the GM must answer explicitly) or (ii) oftentimes, I'll grant the Ranger (in this case a Bladesinger) authorial control and I'll ask him what's out there. I'll let him frame the scene and then I'll use what information he provides me to generate complications that, again, they can either engage in or use resources (such as Peerless Exploration again) to Transition/Re-frame. If you have ever played Dungeon World, the deployment of this ability is very much akin to a Ranger using a hypercharged version of Strider, allowing him to play the role of trailblazer, scout, and quartermaster and getting an automatic 10 + on each. The Ranger can dictate avoidance of fights/day (thus contracting the usage of daily resources toward fewer fights) or can initiate Skill Challenges to create specific assets for themselves or complications for the enemy.


Survivor's Assurance
You adjust your companions’ clothing and gear, and you show them techniques for breathing and marching that will help them bear the harsh conditions ahead.

1 - Skill Challenges - Perma-ridiculously high Nature check instead of Endurance for all allies subjected to environmental dangers? This has been a big one for group checks in Skill Challenges in the Abyss. Its only late Paragon and Epic so the nasty places you will be should see lots of use from this Martial Practice.

2 - Mundane Task Resolution - The Nature check instead of Endurance has come into play for Disease/Condition Track checks, especially recently while in the Abyss. Its going to see lots of play in any extreme environment where you're making a group Endurance check every 8 hours or risk surge-loss. Indespensible in those scenarios.

3 - Re-framing or Transitioning Scenes - See Survivor's Preparation, except the mechanics make it even better as its applicable to all Endurance check scenarios. At this level of play (late Paragon and Epic), there is a reasonable chance you're in an inhospitable climate at a decent clip. Preventing surge-loss due to environmental exposure is extremely valuable.
 
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