Martial Practices inferior to Rituals????

Beyond the analysis above of potency/utility, Martial Practices provide legitimacy to the thematic archetype of the two characters that have invested in them. The Bladesinger, bulwarked by specific MPs above, mechanically and thematically is for all intents and purposes a classic ranger in my game. The Rogue, bulwarked by specific MPs above, mechanically and thematically is for all intents and purposes a classic spy in my game. In play, the mechanics are clean and productive in facilitating conflict resolution and the fictional positioning maps strongly to both archetypes.

One feat's worth of investment pulls that off. Well worth it.

Thanks for going over things. To me much of the Thematics seem available free.

I have no problem giving the descriptive benefits of trackers eye (aside from the +5 which I would grant a +2 typically to anyone with perception/nature skills or just one and the right background... ie thematically better at tracking than other perception uses) however I can see how gaining a specialized +5 for the remainder of the day if you know its likely to be valuable for a healing surge could be valuable.

And you know what I would like people to be able to make aide other checks and help their untrained allies for a +2 group check bonuses as a general thing not thinking that kind of teamwork element to skill use should be hidden under the cabbage leaves.

And taking ten is just reliably mediocrity ie a 10 when that is a typical roll anyway just doesn't seem that valuable the healing surge might well worth more. Its also giving up the chance to get a possible 2 successes on critical - guess thats a house rule of mine. In general taking ten seems really just a wash in value not even black just completely situational to me for one 10 might not be enough and you are guessing it is.

Long distance runner is well not a team oriented value and while indeed it is thematic - thematic of that sort is kind of covered by having endurance skill trained In fact high end heroic endurance for these demigods ought to be even longer than 24 hours I think someone commented recently that deciding how much impact skills can have by setting DCs is kind of open and that is an example of locking it down.

Peerless exploration because of it enabling something which is thematically right feeling the scouting ahead safely when the mechanics really don't otherwise accomplish it gets a thumbs up from me.

When you employ what skill is most of the time somewhat flexible for me anyway a feature I feel was opened up by SC and when X is the most likely skill the DCs do adjust a bit depending on the plausibility of the skill in that circumstance. Is the idea to allow less plausible applications to be full on value... ie a friend of mine said that a spell like that one can't possibly have more than a 24 hour duration without something nasty like human sacrifice and because of this skill that friend is quite an Arcana savvy source them-self. Street contacts and the ability to recognize which are providing valuable info and which are not ... seems a normal feature of streetwise - doesnt it?

A good chunk gets down to that I think how much do you allow to work with a normal skill use.

Garthanos said:

Thanks for going over things.

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No problem. Just going to address a few of these.

Garthanos said:

And taking ten is just reliably mediocrity ie a 10 when that is a typical roll anyway just doesn't seem that valuable the healing surge might well worth more.

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Let me preface one thing right quick. The way I run 4e, I use Healing Surges as an open descriptor resource for the PCs that represents all manner of things; mental stress, physical fatigue, ailment, morale setback, superficial injury, wind knocked out of you, momentum, etc. It is not "a chunk of meat stowed away for later use" or anything even close. It is very open descriptor and a narrative tool used to facilitate all manner of things. Secondly, in my Skill Challenges, a micro-failure almost universally means the loss of a healing surge, and a loss in the aggregate will cost all of the PCs 1 (sometimes 1) healing surges. With that said:

Consider the following level 10 character with Dex/Str as secondary attribute at + 3. This character has no training, theme, background, feat investment into Acrobatics/Athletics. However, he does have the Reliable Balance/Uncanny Strength Martial Practice. That is an automatic 18, the Medium DC for a level 10 Skill Challenge. Given how widely applicable Acrobatics/Athletics is, in a considerable number of Skill Challenges, this character will have already afforded his group 1 of the required (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8) Medium DC successes for the "win condition" to be met. Without it, deployment of that resource would have a 45 % chance of failure. Worth a surge? I'd say so.

Consider the following level 10 character with Dex/Str as primary attribute at + 5. This character has training, and either theme or background bonus investment into Acrobatics/Athletics. Like the above character, he also has the Reliable Balance/Uncanny Strength Martial Practice. That is an automatic 27, or 1 more than the High DC for a level 10 Skill Challenge. Given how widely applicable Acrobatics/Athletics is, in a considerable number of Skill Challenges, this character will have already afforded his group 1 of the required (1, 2, 3, 4) Hard DC successes for the "win condition" to be met. Assuming there will be potential for a secondary usage as the narrative evolves, the character can also contribute 1 of the (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8) Medium DC successes (now turned into Hard DC due to the prior success). That is a considerable 2 automatic success (or 50, 33, 25, 20, or 17 % of the total required success to meet the "win condition"). Without it, deployment of that resource would have a 40 % chance of failure at the high DC. Worth a surge? I'd say so.

Again, especially so if healing surges are the cost of failures in Skill Challenges.

Garthanos said:

Peerless exploration because of it enabling something which is thematically right feeling the scouting ahead safely when the mechanics really don't otherwise accomplish it gets a thumbs up from me.

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Easily my groups' (and the Bladesinger's) favorite.

Garthanos said:

When you employ what skill is most of the time somewhat flexible for me anyway a feature I feel was opened up by SC and when X is the most likely skill the DCs do adjust a bit depending on the plausibility of the skill in that circumstance. Is the idea to allow less plausible applications to be full on value... ie a friend of mine said that a spell like that one can't possibly have more than a 24 hour duration without something nasty like human sacrifice and because of this skill that friend is quite an Arcana savvy source them-self. Street contacts and the ability to recognize which are providing valuable info and which are not ... seems a normal feature of streetwise - doesnt it?

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A good chunk gets down to that I think how much do you allow to work with a normal skill use.[/QUOTE]

My usage of skills is exrarordinarily broad descriptor. Its not full open descriptor but it is as close to it as it can get. My players are fiction-first so they are not irresponsible with this. Further, I frame tightly and overtly enough (using lots of props including what is tantamount to scene-tags/aspects/distinctions that evolve as the narrative emerges) that any one decision-point couldn't yield open-descriptor even if it wanted to. So that isn't a problem at our table.

However. Something like outright subbing a Skill for another Skill without authority of the ruleset? That is in discord with the ruleset as there is a contingent of very specific resources (typically Encounter powers) that allow for the sub of one skill for another; eg the various Wizard "sub Arcana for x" line "Chameleon's Mask" (Stealth), "Spook" (Intimidate), "Suggestion" (Diplomacy).

Manbearcat said:

However. Something like outright subbing a Skill for another Skill without authority of the ruleset? That is in discord with the ruleset as there is a contingent of very specific resources (typically Encounter powers) that allow for the sub of one skill for another; eg the various Wizard "sub Arcana for x" line "Chameleon's Mask" (Stealth), "Spook" (Intimidate), "Suggestion" (Diplomacy).

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Perhaps I misrepresented...
The use of Streetwise to gain more specific style lore like the Arcana in the example - conceptually involves more time accessing the contacts an hour is more time (than most unaided Arcana checks ) but maybe that is faster than the day it might normally take with Streetwise (and 50gp is that less or more than normal palm greasing relationship continuing funds) - so perhaps spending a healing surge is representing my character rushing the process couldn't I normally rush the process ? And couldnt that be generalized?

Heroic Exertion : you may spend a healing surge to enhance a trained skill in these ways.

• to perform a skillful action in significantly less time (1/5 or something perhaps)
• spending a healing surge to allow taking ten when you otherwise couldn't
• being able to aide a group of others without impairing your own performance.

Specialization Focus: When you train a skill you may pick a sub-area of that skill in which you are treated as having focus for instance for Perception you might pick tracking for that specific arena of use you are treated as though having skill focus with it.

Combine those and how many martial practices does that cover?

Garthanos said:

A mage buys an off the rack item then uses enchant item to create absolutely any magic item in the book.

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Didn't the ritual get errata so it can only be used to create common items?

Jhaelen said:

Didn't the ritual get errata so it can only be used to create common items?

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Pendantic difference ... compare that to Forge Weapon / 6 bland single purpose items total with the same character design investment to acquire and let me know how the scales fall.

Also rarity rules are so a dev team suffering corporate amnesia can make broken magic items and call them rare...

double post

Garthanos said:

Perhaps I misrepresented...
The use of Streetwise to gain more specific style lore like the Arcana in the example - conceptually involves more time accessing the contacts an hour is more time (than most unaided Arcana checks ) but maybe that is faster than the day it might normally take with Streetwise (and 50gp is that less or more than normal palm greasing relationship continuing funds) - so perhaps spending a healing surge is representing my character rushing the process couldn't I normally rush the process ? And couldnt that be generalized?

Heroic Exertion : you may spend a healing surge to enhance a trained skill in these ways.

• to perform a skillful action in significantly less time (1/5 or something perhaps)
• spending a healing surge to allow taking ten when you otherwise couldn't
• being able to aide a group of others without impairing your own performance.

Specialization Focus: When you train a skill you may pick a sub-area of that skill in which you are treated as having focus for instance for Perception you might pick tracking for that specific arena of use you are treated as though having skill focus with it.

Combine those and how many martial practices does that cover?

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The main value I see in this is simplification and the other is being able to distinguish those specific Martial Practices which are really just patches for the skill system and so in my opinion should be merged simply with the skill system and those which actually tight rope walk the line between non-magical and magical

I cast necromantic recovery, because there is tons of material in this thread particularly from [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]

Manbearcat said:

However. Something like outright subbing a Skill for another Skill without authority of the ruleset? That is in discord with the ruleset as there is a contingent of very specific resources (typically Encounter powers) that allow for the sub of one skill for another; eg the various Wizard "sub Arcana for x" line "Chameleon's Mask" (Stealth), "Spook" (Intimidate), "Suggestion" (Diplomacy).

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I consider the cantrip subs too broad though flavorful, ie any use of the skill X is now Y every encounter... really? you get 4 of them puppies coming out of the gate it basically the Mage gets an upgrade into skill monkey if he wants it.

Although one might argue situational ability to do a skill swap is actually something rituals kind of do OR could be framed as doing and sometimes wonderfully for the entire bloody party ... being able to change out perception skill in a murder scene investigation into a "influence" skill like diplomacy or maybe even intimidate. (I know you are dead but you have family) - > situation required a dead body on the scene.