Martial Practices inferior to Rituals????

Garthanos said:

I cast necromantic recovery, because there is tons of material in this thread particularly from [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]



I consider the cantrip subs too broad though flavorful, ie any use of the skill X is now Y every encounter... really? you get 4 of them puppies coming out of the gate it basically the Mage gets an upgrade into skill monkey if he wants it.

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I agree completely. My last 1-30 game had a Bladesinger as one of the 3 PCs. He had Spook and Suggestion and an absurd Arcana check. Level 0 Utility Powers (especially when you have a suite of them by default) are extremely powerful as 1/encounter subs without any narrowing of the fictional trigger (eg Sub Arcana for Intimidate if you've already given this enemy a reason to fear you or fear magic) or cost (eg spend a Healing Surge). The former works well for Dungeon World. The latter works well for 4e.

Manbearcat said:

I agree completely. My last 1-30 game had a Bladesinger as one of the 3 PCs. He had Spook and Suggestion and an absurd Arcana check. Level 0 Utility Powers (especially when you have a suite of them by default) are extremely powerful as 1/encounter subs without any narrowing of the fictional trigger (eg Sub Arcana for Intimidate if you've already given this enemy a reason to fear you or fear magic) or cost (eg spend a Healing Surge). The former works well for Dungeon World. The latter works well for 4e.

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Just made me think, subject sees you kill someone with magic as a trigger condition

So a generic give em a healing surge cost might make a mage think twice but requiring the target see you killing someone with magic seems pretty good limit for spook

These are not the droids you are looking for... has a history of requiring minions or noticeably lower level subjects.

My instinct with essentials is to fix it not ban it

So if i go with

• Spook now has a requirement subject must have seen you kill someone or some significant creature with magic
• Chameleons Mask now only works stationary
• Suggestion now only works against minions or creatures significantly lower level than you 3 levels or more.

I feel in this form they have the same or even better flavor

For an example let's make an examination...

Comprehend Language is a 1st-level ritual.[PH:302]

When beginning the ritual, choose a language you have heard or a piece of writing you have seen within the past 24 hours.

Using this ritual on a language you have heard allows you to understand it when spoken for the next 24 hours and, if your Arcana check result is 35 or higher, to speak the language fluently for the duration.

Using this ritual on a language you have seen as a piece of writing allows you to read the language for the next 24 hours and, if your Arcana check result is 35 or higher, to write the language in its native script or in any other script you know for the duration.

Using this ritual on a language you have both heard and seen as a piece of writing within the past 24 hours allows you to understand it in both forms for the next 24 hours, and an Arcana check result of 35 or higher allows you to speak and write the language.

As you finish the ritual, the guttural language of the creatures before you clarifies into something you understand.

Time: 10 minutes
Duration: 24 hours
Component Cost: 10 gp
Market Price: 50 gp
Key Skill: Arcana



So what do we have here ... the Comprehend language ritual is level 1... and the martial practice is level 3? , the former effect lasts a full 24 hours the latter lasts 10 minutes. The ideas communicated by the ritual may be as rich as full fluency.. the speech without words is ahem crude and limited always.

The ritual is one of the cheapest rituals and uses 10GP, it takes 10 minutes to perform which is indeed twice that of Speech without words but can be done almost entirely in advance of its most significant need.

Garthanos said:

So if i go with

• Spook now has a requirement subject must have seen you kill someone or some significant creature with magic
• Chameleons Mask now only works stationary
• Suggestion now only works against minions or creatures significantly lower level than you 3 levels or more.

I feel in this form they have the same or even better flavor

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I mean if someone made martial cantrips that looked like these LOL

Impressive Musculature
once per encounter you may may make an athletics check in place of diplomacy

Mighty fearsome
once per encounter you may may make an athletics check in place of intimidation

Distracting move
once per encounter you may may make an athletics check to aid anothers bluff check (increase your aid another bonus by 2)

Garthanos said:

I mean if someone made martial cantrips that looked like these LOL

Impressive Musculature
once per encounter you may may make an athletics check in place of diplomacy

Mighty fearsome
once per encounter you may may make an athletics check in place of intimidation

Distracting move
once per encounter you may may make an athletics check to aid anothers bluff check (increase your aid another bonus by 2)

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Does anyone honestly think the people making essentials would have said yeah that's a cool idea, just like what we did for the Wizard.

I like the last one, but yeah, the High School Quarterback rule was in full effect for essentials

Marshall said:

I like the last one, but yeah, the High School Quarterback rule was in full effect for essentials

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I went with a less pure skill swap on that one, and ended up with a team trick that I kind of like actually.


I think un-nerfed the skill swaps might be worth while to be feats.

I have nerfed the Mage skill swap cantrips in my character builder

Garthanos said:

For an example let's make an examination...

Comprehend Language is a 1st-level ritual.[PH:302]

When beginning the ritual, choose a language you have heard or a piece of writing you have seen within the past 24 hours.

Using this ritual on a language you have heard allows you to understand it when spoken for the next 24 hours and, if your Arcana check result is 35 or higher, to speak the language fluently for the duration.

Using this ritual on a language you have seen as a piece of writing allows you to read the language for the next 24 hours and, if your Arcana check result is 35 or higher, to write the language in its native script or in any other script you know for the duration.

Using this ritual on a language you have both heard and seen as a piece of writing within the past 24 hours allows you to understand it in both forms for the next 24 hours, and an Arcana check result of 35 or higher allows you to speak and write the language.

As you finish the ritual, the guttural language of the creatures before you clarifies into something you understand.

Time: 10 minutes
Duration: 24 hours
Component Cost: 10 gp
Market Price: 50 gp
Key Skill: Arcana

View attachment 83247

So what do we have here ... the Comprehend language ritual is level 1... and the martial practice is level 3? , the former effect lasts a full 24 hours the latter lasts 10 minutes. The ideas communicated by the ritual may be as rich as full fluency.. the speech without words is ahem crude and limited always.

The ritual is one of the cheapest rituals and uses 10GP, it takes 10 minutes to perform which is indeed twice that of Speech without words but can be done almost entirely in advance of its most significant need.

Click to expand...

OK how to fix..

One idea I had was allow martial practices to be cheaper than a healing surge by allowing the user to make a save or skill check, although I am tempted to change speech without words thus

• level 1... what were they thinking.
• Just a skillful practice no healing surge cost
• emphasize this works with animals and those without complex verbal languages (It looks like the comprehend language ritual already doesnt do that)
• allow surreptitious hidden communication with others who have learned it.