Martial Practices inferior to Rituals????

Another real world compare for our long distance runner practice - A modern marathon might be a 3 hour run at 8 miles per hour... (which might be a fair approx for the Boston Marathon) this would be moving 3 times a fair walking pace .

Garthanos said:

One Martial Practice will be creating Grand Master Trainings and designing the regimen that support them.

Martial Mastery or should I call it Martial Artistry

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I think in order for Martial Practices to be well "serious", at minimum Martial flavored GMT need to be "serious"

oops meant to post the image showing the actual practice in Character Builder

Manbearcat said:

[MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] and [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] , I think the best way Martial Practices could be integrated into orthodox 4e's overall system machinery is by:

1) Differentiating it from Rituals in how PCs activate them (good job there guys. Healing Surges versus the level-1 Coin pool PCs are expected to have).

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Not that we LIKE coin as an option for rituals mind you... In fact it sort of almost seems like HS for rituals (life force powers magic) vs coin or maybe some other intangible for practices might be nicer, but at least we have something...

2) Make Rituals and Martial Practices all do the same sort of stuff. You're talking:

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OK, this is a good point. You have a list here, A,B,C,D, is there some formal thinking on this subject? Some 'forge speak' or somesuch? (I have a kinda dim view of forge speak, but this is probably the sort of area where a formal lexicon could work well).

a) Allows a PC to reframe a potential situation from one scene to another. A Wizard Teleports a group and we transition scenes/locales "from here to there" while a Ranger leads them safely on a Perilous Journey and does the same thing. A Druid sends an offscreen missive via an animal friend. A Fighter sends an offscreen missive via freaking tireless legs, implacable will/stamina...or maybe via a Follower.

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Right, so handling 'transitions'. Its a pretty good category. I mean, we can definitely see various options here. Wizards Passwall, Fighters Break Barriers (not sure what the best formulation of a 'crash through a wall practice' is yet). I think you can work out pretty much analogous effects, maybe with some different details and strengths/drawbacks for each.

b) Invoke a Skill Challenge. Adjure performs an exorcism. Weight of Death's Stare allows the Fighter to project her fortitude into the Mental Realm (or wherever) of the host and attempt to cast the demon out (via combat Skill Challenge) for a physical combat encounter with the possessing creature...the host's life pending.

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That one is also interesting. No doubt there is at least something of a taxonomy for this kind of thing too.

c) Creating a single-use minimum d20 Roll (such as 5 for 1 surge/n coin or 8 for 2 surges/x coin).

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I suppose so. I mean this would be more of a general question about buying results.

d) Constrain the GM in rendering post-resolution failure by giving the player some kind of authorial power or veto right when the situation is changed adversely.

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Hmmmmm. Yeah, well, that could be generalized too. There could be a general 'raise or lower the stakes, define the consequences' kind of realm.

That would do the trick.

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I found a list of things rituals and practices do a while back and saved it but not sure where I got it.

Acquire Skill
Bind a Soul
Break and Enter
Change Environment
Change Objects
Change Treasure
Clean
Communicate
Copy Text
Create Consumables
Create Objects
Create Security/Alarms
Create Servants
Detain/Restrain
Detect Creatures
Disguise
Distribute Healing Surges
Eavesdrop
Entertain
Fake Objects
Foil Communication
Foil Defiling
Foil Eavesdropping
Foil Illusions
Foil Invisibility
Foil Pursuit
Foil Stealth
Foil Teleportation
Hide Information
Improve Capabilities
Improve Teamwork
Influence Beasts
Influence Monsters
Influence People
Interrogate
Investigate
Learn
Light
Mislead
Move Longterm
Navigate
Overcome Obstacles
Preserve Corpse
Preserve Objects
Protect
Record Information
Repair Objects
Rest
Resurrect
Search
Share Senses
Shelter
Sneak
Strengthen Objects
Survive
Teleport
Track
Transport Objects
Trap
Travel Between Planes
Treat Lasting Effects
Weaken Enemies
Weaken Objects

Garthanos said:

I found a list of things rituals and practices do a while back and saved it but not sure where I got it.

Acquire Skill
Bind a Soul
Break and Enter
Change Environment
Change Objects
Change Treasure
Clean
Communicate
Copy Text
Create Consumables
Create Objects
Create Security/Alarms
Create Servants
Detain/Restrain
Detect Creatures
Disguise
Distribute Healing Surges
Eavesdrop
Entertain
Fake Objects
Foil Communication
Foil Defiling
Foil Eavesdropping
Foil Illusions
Foil Invisibility
Foil Pursuit
Foil Stealth
Foil Teleportation
Hide Information
Improve Capabilities
Improve Teamwork
Influence Beasts
Influence Monsters
Influence People
Interrogate
Investigate
Learn
Light
Mislead
Move Longterm
Navigate
Overcome Obstacles
Preserve Corpse
Preserve Objects
Protect
Record Information
Repair Objects
Rest
Resurrect
Search
Share Senses
Shelter
Sneak
Strengthen Objects
Survive
Teleport
Track
Transport Objects
Trap
Travel Between Planes
Treat Lasting Effects
Weaken Enemies
Weaken Objects

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OK, so, then, lets see what 'dramatic functional categories' we can come up with, and then which thing goes in which one.

1. Transition from one scene to another - Things like teleport, but also strategic flight, guidance through an obstacle or overcoming of an obstacle, etc. Anything that produces a scene transition. Some of these may not even be travel-related potentially.

2. Initiate a conflict - @Manbearcat has examples like "enter someone's dream and defeat a nightmare" etc, but I'm wondering if this is entirely distinct from the first category. It is after all a NEW SCENE, and that's what would happen after ANY transition, this is just a category of non-travel transitions (actually it may even involve travel, but perhaps in a more metaphorical sense).

3. Produce a guaranteed result by allowing the spending of resources to achieve it - Is this actually DISTINCT FROM 1/2? They don't seem to be mutually exclusive categories. However I think there's a reasonable point here of what the primary goal is. If you're using a ritual to make sure you can read the secret language, that's one thing. If its so you can jump the chasm without fail, then isn't it also 1/2? Honestly ALMOST all practices/rituals work in the transition sense (jump the chasm, advance to the scene on the other side). Admittedly most rituals can ALSO work WITHIN a scene, but is that actually a valid way to categorize them?

4. Define and limit consequences - Again, thinking about it, is this distinct from #3? I mean, a guaranteed result is limiting consequences, presumably. It certainly isn't limiting SUCCESSES...

So, maybe these are all at least non-exclusive possibilities. Sorry, I started out to make a list and instead I seem to have DESTROYED a list! lol. Still, we could apply specific attributes to all rituals/practices and insist that each of them fall into one or more of several categories, and then analyze the distribution and effectiveness of one type over the other to produce a balanced set. That would probably help produce rituals and practices that are, if not exactly equivalent, at least opening up the same sorts of capabilities to each type of character.

AbdulAlhazared said:

(not sure what the best formulation of a 'crash through a wall practice' is yet)

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Hmmm batman is known to use that as a flavorful surprise attack, teehee. (but his walls are usually pretty mundane)

Breaching Ram, examining the barrier with care and applies perception to find weaknesses you hammer it with mighty blows.... that undermine it further with final roar you spend a healing surge and bull rush attack you crumble what seemed an impossible to pass wall.

There could be more to it though obviously... Breaching ram use may well allow one to go through then collapse behind you and it doesnt leave the barriers structure intact. (unless the structure was pretty slapdash in the first place)


Passwall is a fairly high level ability at level 12, and its "only last one minute" is almost a more valuable ... and is afterwards invisible.

You create a passage through any solid material. You choose the orientation of the passage relative to the surface you touch. The passage is 1 square wide and tall. The passage can be a number of squares deep equal to your Arcana check result divided by 5. This ritual does not conceal the passage from anyone or bar anyone from entering. A creature inside the passage when it closes takes 5d10 damage and is ejected to the nearest end of the passage. This ritual does not affect the structural integrity of a cavern or a wall; the passage is a twist in space, not an actual shifting of material.

Garthanos said:

Breaching Ram is a fairly high level ability at level 12

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It does strike me that flavor wise a paragon knight in full armor bashing down a chunk of a wall isn't far off flavor wise.

Especially if its a Dwarf for some reason

Garthanos said:

It does strike me that flavor wise a paragon knight in full armor bashing down a chunk of a wall isn't far off flavor wise.

Especially if its a Dwarf for some reason

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You mean especially if its a Goliath...

Actually I'd think a Minotaur would be the very most iconic! Of course he could also be a paragon knight!

AbdulAlhazred said:

You mean especially if its a Goliath...

Actually I'd think a Minotaur would be the very most iconic! Of course he could also be a paragon knight!

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Well I was thinking of a Miner ... ie we could make it dungeoneering based practice