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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It's not about balls.

Correct. Because "having balls" is really about being brave. Facing up to a real world bully is being brave, because that bully might punch you. But, in a mostly-anonymous internet discussion, there's nothing to be brave about, as nobody has any ability to harm anyone else, except by throwing mean words (ooh, scary!). Without consequences, no bravery is required.

Here's an interesting point about the internet. In the physical world, humans have a whole bunch of non-verbal cues and responses to manage and prevent personal clashes. In the virtual world, the majority of those cues aren't present. Egos clash, but the common mechanisms to resolve one way or another aren't there. So, with neither party having any real power in the situation, the clash just continues, often perpetually, often carrying over as a personal grudge from thread to thread.

We've found that our method usually breaks that pattern, by bumping the issue to someone who does have some ability to end the clash, one way or another.

Or, if you need to, you can think about moderator action as being the consequence that drives resolution of conflicts.
 

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bone_naga

Explorer
Okay? I think I'm okay with that.

It's not about balls. If I see people knocking stuff from a shelf onto the ground, I'm not going to try to tell them to knock it off. I'm going to let the people that run the store take care of it however they want to.

I agree, depending on the circumstances. If the people don't seem receptive, or if the people are out of control, or if it's understood that the protocol is that I shouldn't be trying to take care of things, or etc. etc. etc., then I'm not going to deal with it myself.

On the other hand, I do prefer to work things out via dialogue and civil discussion, as I've indicated -twice- in this thread. So if we can do that, either in real life or on the internet, then I'm down.
Your response is entirely too reasonable and therefore offends me. What happened to the WotC days of a good 50% of threads devolving into trolling/flaming?

Anyway, that makes more sense, that just wasn't what I gathered from your earlier posts. But returning to the topic of forum posts rather than RL scenarios, especially in the context of Umbran's post on the handling of reports, wouldn't it make more sense to at least make it known to the poster that you have a problem with him before reporting him? Or just add him to your ignore list and move on? Sometimes people are just rude and insensitive by nature (or choice) but sometimes it really is unintentional.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Truth is, we are very opiniated, but is arguing picking a fight? Does disagreeing mean you can't discuss a topic?

I think that around here, we note a distinction between discussion and argument.

In a discussion, the basic goal is to explore and exchange ideas - discussion involves both give and take.

In an argument, the basic goal for each person is to press their ideas on others - the speaker has no intention or desire to take anything.

If you are absolutely convinced that you are correct, and your purpose is to show how the other guy is wrongity-wrong-wrong, with wrong sauce, to not budge, to defeat or dismiss anything the other person says, you're in an argument. On the internet, arguments are not very constructive.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Depends, if I question what he hold to be true it is an exploration of ideas.

Note I said explore *and* exchange, give *and* take. Merely questioning another's correctness does not mean *you* exchange or explore anything - if you don't plan on accepting what the other person says might be correct, you probably aren't in a discussion by the way we use the terms here.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Personal observation: You don't come across as weird. To be perfectly honest, to me, you come across more as crass and insensitive.
I've been told I'm going straight to hell too!

While we are at telling what the other projects, you really are arrogant when you post. It doesn't make you charming or sound respectful. I wouldn't mind so much if you weren't also a moderator who is telling me to be more charming.

I'm sorry you see it that way. To us, it is merely a valuable tool in creating a particular atmosphere.
It should apply to all. You wrote this in this thread (post#78 )
Sure. And, in taking on someone like, say Danny, who is well versed on the subject and can continue such a discussion quite civilly until the other side is well and truly shown to be a troll, ignorant, or deficient in reasoning power, they don't do themselves any favors.


You sent me a warning for insulting another member, because I said I didn't know him and he could be lying. Did you moderate yourself for indirectly saying I we were trolls, ignorant or mentally challenged? Did you know that really insulted some of us? To me it seems like a double standard, one for you one for others, and that reporting is determined by who wrote what and not what was written. Same below.

You moderated me for making a joke about PMS Avenger from the Mystery Men trailer (1:10) and Wonder Woman, saying it didn't belong here.

While you wrote this (post#18) in this thread:
the Daryl Dixon Estrogen Brigade
. You said it is not meant to be disparaging, but it really is. Did you give yourself a warning? Did anyone report you? If I would have said it wasn't meant to be disparaging, would it have been ok too?

To me it sounds like moderation is a tool used by some people against other people they do not like. It also sounds like you sometimes forget you are a moderator when you post.

Maybe you think that I'm over reating, but moderation was horrible on the WotC boards. The experience here so far was not encouraging.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Note I said explore *and* exchange, give *and* take. Merely questioning another's correctness does not mean *you* exchange or explore anything - if you don't plan on accepting what the other person says might be correct, you probably aren't in a discussion by the way we use the terms here.
If people are willing to accept I am correct too, I have no problem with that.
 

bone_naga

Explorer
Maybe you think that I'm over reating, but moderation was horrible on the WotC boards. The experience here so far was not encouraging.
That's an understatement.

Guys, while I don't agree with everything Goldo says or how he says it, this much is definitely true, so just keep that in mind if this comes across as overly nitpicky or rules-lawyering or anything like that. We spent far too long dealing with really bad and inconsistent moderation that sometimes left us scratching our heads, the mods themselves would never comment on their moderation, and customer service had a default answer of "please read our really vague CoC that we never really elaborate on and every mod seems to interpret differently and the mod is always right".
 

Janx

Hero
Your response is entirely too reasonable and therefore offends me. What happened to the WotC days of a good 50% of threads devolving into trolling/flaming?

Anyway, that makes more sense, that just wasn't what I gathered from your earlier posts. But returning to the topic of forum posts rather than RL scenarios, especially in the context of Umbran's post on the handling of reports, wouldn't it make more sense to at least make it known to the poster that you have a problem with him before reporting him? Or just add him to your ignore list and move on? Sometimes people are just rude and insensitive by nature (or choice) but sometimes it really is unintentional.

Part of how EN World "better" than WotC is that we don't suffer rude or insensitive posts or people. Sure, we all post insensitive or rude things, but a scan of the breadth of the regulars are that overall, the post quality is higher.

If somebody's making every topic a political dig (like that one guy who got perma banned), that is EXACTLY the result we want to see.

It's not my job to charge another human being with poor conduct. It's the authority. My job is to raise the issue to the authority and let them review the situation with less of my baggage coloring the review than if I attempt to tackle the issue myself.

Consider this the form of governance we have here at EN World. It's a Morrusocracy. I've been happy hear since this site was before this site was officially called EN World when Eric Noah ran it.


If the mods do their job well, they deal with the really bad offenses singularly, or with the individual if they are seeing a high rate of reporting across all the users.

That's one of the benefits of calling the cops versus dealing with it yourself. If I confront Mr. BadPoster, the authorities don't know about it. But if 20 people report Mr. BadPoster, they can see if it's just one badly worded post, or if the guy is being jerk across the whole board. the former can be dealt with a warning, and in some ways isn't a big deal because if a person did get carried away, naturally 20 people will report it. The latter is what usually gets a dude banned, and the Report button tied to a reporting metric is how the mods know who the problem users are.
 

Part of how EN World "better" than WotC is that we don't suffer rude or insensitive posts or people. Sure, we all post insensitive or rude things, but a scan of the breadth of the regulars are that overall, the post quality is higher.

If somebody's making every topic a political dig (like that one guy who got perma banned), that is EXACTLY the result we want to see.

It's not my job to charge another human being with poor conduct. It's the authority. My job is to raise the issue to the authority and let them review the situation with less of my baggage coloring the review than if I attempt to tackle the issue myself.

Consider this the form of governance we have here at EN World. It's a Morrusocracy. I've been happy hear since this site was before this site was officially called EN World when Eric Noah ran it.


If the mods do their job well, they deal with the really bad offenses singularly, or with the individual if they are seeing a high rate of reporting across all the users.

That's one of the benefits of calling the cops versus dealing with it yourself. If I confront Mr. BadPoster, the authorities don't know about it. But if 20 people report Mr. BadPoster, they can see if it's just one badly worded post, or if the guy is being jerk across the whole board. the former can be dealt with a warning, and in some ways isn't a big deal because if a person did get carried away, naturally 20 people will report it. The latter is what usually gets a dude banned, and the Report button tied to a reporting metric is how the mods know who the problem users are.
You seem like a reasonable person, and your advice is generally pretty good. I think you do a good job of explaining what the social norms on this site are, or what people would like them to be. unfortunately, there seems to be a disconnect between what you say and what others do. That seems to be the problem It makes it harder for others to acclimate to the environment if they are presented with a set of rules that aren't the ones being followed by everyone, you know what I mean?
 

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