D&D 5E Open Letter to Mike Mearls from a pro game dev

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Damage on a Miss really hits all of the great gamer debates in a single massive swing.

It's a bit if gamist design, so it impacts gamist vs simulationist debates.
Because it's giving martial characters something spellcasters have long had, it's bringing in QWLF and the complaint "martials can't have anything nice."
Because reaping strike was a PHB1 power and most dailies dealt some damage, DoaM was a big part of 4e design, bringing in edition wars and tension between OSR and modern design.

It's pushing all the buttons at once.
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Well that was fast. One thorough, reasoned OP, and six pages of posts that don't even try to make a case to the contrary. I'm still waiting for a real answer as to what the other side of this argument is. Seems to me like logic and reason against spite and vitriol. A microcosm of many things, I suppose.

To be fair, it is considered gauche to tout your credentials while hiding your identity. Most of the snide responses seem to be directed towards the OP's faux pas in that regard.

That said, I agree with the sentiment that "damage on a miss" is inherently contradictory, and doesn't make sense; that's part and parcel of accepting the "hit point loss as physical damage" stance over that of "hit point loss as a variety of factors that culminate in loss of combat effectiveness" (which I think "damage on a miss" is an extension of). Moreover, the arguments in favor of this latter idea seem to employ some fairly tortured logic. The biggest proponents of the idea tend to put forward one or more of the following:

1) Hit points as physical damage doesn't make sense because it means an absolute representation of a wound. The basic idea here is that your average commoner would die from a single attack that did, say, 8 hit points of damage. Ergo, that single attack would represent some instantly-lethal blow, such as being decapitated or skewered through the heart.

A lot of pro-"hit point loss is not physical damage" people hold that this representation ("8 hit points of damage in one attack is a lethal blow") is an absolute; that is, it's true across every instance of damage that deals 8+ hit points in the game. Since there are obviously characters, such as the PCs, that not only routinely survive such wounds, but often do so in rapid succession while still fighting, then the only way to reconcile this is to discard the entire notion of hit points as physical damage.

The problem with this reasoning is its absolutist nature. You can maintain the "hit points as damage" stance while discarding "absolute representation" in favor of damage scaling. "Damage scaling" here means that hit point loss represents a physical wound whose seriousness is represented by how large a proportion it is of the character's total hit points. So for a commoner with only 6 hit points, that 8 hit points of damage from one attack is indeed a one-hit killshot. But for the character with 80 hit points, that same blow for the same 8 points of damage is a deep cut or a large bruise, nothing more.

In other words, the "hit point loss as damage" mechanic doesn't marry the fluff to the crunch so tightly that it breaks the entire concept.

There are some popular counter-arguments here. The first is that this gives rise to a "bitten to death by ducks" scenario, where someone with 80 hit points can be whittled down by 1 hit point over eighty hits, until they suddenly drop dead from that eightieth scratch. That never struck me as a very weighty complaint, simply because it seems plausible that you can take many small wounds that, collectively, can add up to being lethal in scope.

The second rebuttal usually comes in the form of noting how healing magic becomes less effective for higher-hit point creatures under this model. That is, the
cure light wounds spell, which was healing commoners from life-threatening injuries, won't heal our 80-hit point hero of more than a few scratches. That's a valid charge, but is something of a corner-case; it's not enough to justify discarding the entire "hit point loss as damage" concept, at least to me.

2) Hit point loss as damage is a faulty concept, because there's no simulationist aspect to that damage. The idea here is that characters that take severe amounts of physical damage should show the effects of that damage under the game rules. That is, being wounded near death should have some mechanical representation with regards to a character's ability to fight back, to move, etc. Ergo, since no such debilitating effects are modeled by a loss of hit points, then hit point loss therefore cannot represent physical damage.

The problem with this reasoning (that I find) is that it demands a greater level of simulationism than D&D provides for (in any edition). Rather than acquiescing that the game doesn't, and doesn't intend to, go to this granular of a level, this rationale holds that it does indeed provide for that level of detail, and since it does, the game must therefore be conveying that hit point loss doesn't represent physical damage. This ignores the idea that, taken to extreme, this line of thought means that no one ever suffers severe physical wounds, or can die of damage, in the course of the game, since there's no mechanical model for that in the game.

3) Gary didn't use the "hit points as damage" idea. Gary wrote, back in the 1E DMG, that hit point loss didn't represent physical wounds, saying that it was a combination of luck, stamina, divine protection, and other stuff. Hence, that's the original interpretation of what hit points are right there.

There are a number of problems with this idea. First, Gary seems to have been subscribing to the "damage as an absolute wound" idea listed above, with all of its attendant issues. Given how new D&D was at the time (about five years or so), I'm given to wonder if the idea of damage scaling simply wasn't around/hadn't occurred to him at that point.

Second, Gary didn't have an absolute position. Rather, Gary was inconsistent. He also came up with spells titled cure light wounds which restored hit points - there's a reason he named the spell as healing wounds, rather than calling it cure light mixture of stamina, luck, and divine providence. There are multiple parts of the 1E game books that can be read for and against each stance on the issue of what hit points represent. Gary's ideas are, like a lot of 1E, open to interpretation.

Third, Gary's opinion with regards to 1E shouldn't shape the debate, particularly about later editions. The nature of an edition change is that some of the assumptions of the preceding edition will be changed or discarded. Further, the question of what hit points represent is (at least in part) a question of logic - an appeal to authority doesn't help there.

Finally, the writings in the DMG aren't the "original interpretation" of what hit points represent. Hit points come from the old wargames where a single unit represented a number of troops. Each hit point represented a single individual, and therefore hit point loss was the death of that many soldiers. In other words, the first use of hit points was as physical damage, if we want to look for precedent (though precedent, like an appeal to authority, is of limited use when the debate is over an issue of logic).

On a personal note, the idea of "damage on a miss" where "hit point loss isn't physical damage" always reminded me of kids on the playground putting their fingers an inch away from another kid and yelling "We're not touching you! We're not touching you!" over and over. High heroics, there. ;)
 
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Ahnehnois

First Post
To be fair, it is considered gauche to tout your credentials while hiding your identity. Most of the snide responses seem to be directed towards the OP's faux paus in that regard.
It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I see all kinds of lesser statements being thrown around (including by many of the critics in this thread) about how many hours they've spent playing, how many games they've played, etc. etc. as if it were a "credential". And to some extent, it is useful to give people some idea of what your background is, and it is wise to hide your true identity when doing anything online.

That said, I agree with the sentiment that "damage on a miss" is inherently contradictory, and doesn't make sense; that's part and parcel of accepting the "hit point loss as physical damage" stance over that of "hit point loss as a variety of factors that culminate in loss of combat effectiveness."
I don't think that's even all that relevant. Even if you accept hit points as some kind of nebulous entity that simulates just about anything, or if you abandon the notion that they mean anything and instead use them as some kind of metagame currency (which is of course a pretty far out and ill advised stance), it doesn't make damage on a miss anything other than a terrible idea, as parts of the OP's analysis demonstrate. Even as a purely mathematical construct, it's just stupid.
 

One of the HUGE problems with the DoaM debate is that everyone knows their lines. I think half the posters here just saw this thread was about DoaM, skipped reading the rest of the thread, and jumped right into their usual rebuttal.

Despite problems with the tone of the OP, he does list a staggering number of examples and problems with DoaM in the first post and not a single poster here has replied to them or tried to address them. There are almost not quotes of the first post. It's actually an impressively comprehensive summary.

No one is actually debating any more because no one is actually listening or responding, we're all just launching into pre-programmed responses. It's become a dance rather than a discourse. We might as well all just stop typing and begin cut-and-pasting past conversations.
 

Hanging out on Enworld is not a credential. (hint : credentials are those things where others consider your opinions and talents to be worth actual currency)
Hint: waving around credentials don't make or break arguments. The actual merits of the argument does that.

And your argument may or may not have merit, but your focus on "establishing" yourself as someone to take seriously, as someone more elite than the plebes that otherwise post here, or whatever--in spite of the fact that this open letter is the only way you have to "reach out" to Mearls--has considerably hobbled your ability to get the merits of your argument listened to.
 

Halivar

First Post
It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I see all kinds of lesser statements being thrown around (including by many of the critics in this thread) about how many hours they've spent playing, how many games they've played, etc. etc. as if it were a "credential". And to some extent, it is useful to give people some idea of what your background is, and it is wise to hide your true identity when doing anything online.
Normally I would agree with this, but then OP had to go and say this:

The opinions about game rules by pro game developers should be taken more seriously. That's what expertise means.

When people start paying you six figures for your game dev skills, call me.
I'm sorry, but this is more odiously pretentious than anything I've heard on these forums in years. I just automatically glaze over everything he says.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
To be fair, it is considered gauche to tout your credentials while hiding your identity. Most of the snide responses seem to be directed towards the OP's faux paus in that regard.

That said, I agree with the sentiment that "damage on a miss" is inherently contradictory, and doesn't make sense; that's part and parcel of accepting the "hit point loss as physical damage" stance over that of "hit point loss as a variety of factors that culminate in loss of combat effectiveness" (which I think "damage on a miss" is an extension of). Moreover, the arguments in favor of this latter idea seem to employ some fairly tortured logic.

Generally agreed.

To the OP: I don't use my real name around here, clearly. But if anyone wants to check my creds, I have in the past (and am willing in the future) posted my Texas Bar number with a link that will let you contact me at my place of business if you want verification.

So, if you are who/what you say you are, back it up.

Because, claiming to be what you are not as an attempt to shore up the validity and strength of your assertions will only make it seem as if your argument LACKS the very things you're trying to give it.
 

herrozerro

First Post
One of the HUGE problems with the DoaM debate is that everyone knows their lines. I think half the posters here just saw this thread was about DoaM, skipped reading the rest of the thread, and jumped right into their usual rebuttal.

Despite problems with the tone of the OP, he does list a staggering number of examples and problems with DoaM in the first post and not a single poster here has replied to them or tried to address them. There are almost not quotes of the first post. It's actually an impressively comprehensive summary.

No one is actually debating any more because no one is actually listening or responding, we're all just launching into pre-programmed responses. It's become a dance rather than a discourse. We might as well all just stop typing and begin cut-and-pasting past conversations.

The OP him/herself is only intrested in making it a fight too. Describing it as a war. You are right, there is no more room for debate, it's just yelling for the sake of making a big fuss. Because when it gets down to it, that's all OP is hoping for, to make a big stink so that something will be thrown out because of the stink a few people raise, not on it's own merits.
 

Bluenose

Adventurer
2) Hit point loss as damage is a faulty concept, because there's no simulationist aspect to that damage. The idea here is that characters that take severe amounts of physical damage should show the effects of that damage under the game rules. That is, being wounded near death should have some mechanical representation with regards to a character's ability to fight back, to move, etc. Ergo, since no such debilitating effects are modeled by a loss of hit points, then hit point loss therefore cannot represent physical damage.

The problem with this reasoning (that I find) is that it demands a greater level of simulationism than D&D provides for (in any edition). Rather than acquiescing that the game doesn't, and doesn't intend to, go to this granular of a level, this rationale holds that it does indeed provide for that level of detail, and since it does, the game must therefore be conveying that hit point loss doesn't represent physical damage. This ignores the idea that, taken to extreme, this line of thought means that no one ever suffers severe physical wounds, or can die of damage, in the course of the game, since there's no mechanical model for that in the game.

If D&D doesn't have the mechanical tools to provide for such things, then I assume you haven't come across any spells or magic items which cause permanent or temporary debilitating effects. Let me assure you that those spells/items do exist, and provide mechanical support for just such debilitation.
 

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