Prima System - Core Mechanic discussion.

Michael Morris said:

I want a system where the target number for "very hard" doesn't have to be moved up to something unreasonably high at high level. Because of how bell curves work, high level characters become frighteningly consistent at very hard tasks (24) and can even try harder than hard (27, 30, 33 ...) - but eventually the curve peters out. Each point raised beyond thirty lowers the odds, even for high level characters with lots of dice, by an order of magnitude or more. 44 is the max target number with d20+xd12 keep 2.

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My 2 cents, then: change that die progression. Because once you get to d20+2d12, the following ranks look like a complete waste of time. And with the d20 mixed in with the smaller dice, your bell curve looks more like a washed-out-plateau.

I suggest lowering the d20 to a d12. This will make your curves more bell-like, and possibly make the d20 look more attractive if it's involved in special mechanics.

Michael Morris said:

which is NOT an excuse to write a game system so shoddy the GM has to routinely invoke it. In my mind, any time the GM invokes this "rule" the game system has failed. No system can cover all situations, but if the GM is constantly overruling the system rather than using it then something is wrong.

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Let's look at the opposite of rule zero: player rule. Go ahead and write a game that's so comprehensive that the rules handle every eventuality. Then you'll have players telling the GM what happens, and interrupting every other NPC action with an exciting dip into the rulebook to show the GM that he's wrong. Players rule.

There should be an exciting discussion of this topic here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?352129-Rules-heavy-bad-light-good

When I hear "rule zero," I think "expediting gameplay." You're welcome to call it "overruling the system," but what you're getting at is a fundamental design question:

Do I want my rulebook to be heavy or light?

DMMike said:

My 2 cents, then: change that die progression. Because once you get to d20+2d12, the following ranks look like a complete waste of time. And with the d20 mixed in with the smaller dice, your bell curve looks more like a washed-out-plateau.

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That's not how I would describe the graph. And no, I'm not inclined to switch it out.

Let's look at the opposite of rule zero: player rule. Go ahead and write a game that's so comprehensive that the rules handle every eventuality. Then you'll have players telling the GM what happens, and interrupting every other NPC action with an exciting dip into the rulebook to show the GM that he's wrong. Players rule.

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The comprehensiveness and complexity of the rules system has little to do with player disruptiveness. In my experience its always the same player invoking rules arguments whether it's a rules heavy system like Pathfinder, something midrange like Savage Worlds or even a rule light system. If there are rules, someone's going to argue. This is a problem that lies outside the scope of the rule system itself. I've seen players try to tell the GM what happens in HoL of all systems. It didn't end well. Given this fact, the possibility of player rules lawyering shouldn't be a guide on how a system is built. Ever.

When I hear "rule zero," I think "expediting gameplay." You're welcome to call it "overruling the system," but what you're getting at is a fundamental design question:

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When I hear rule zero - especially in the context of your other statements - I hear "Me against them" mentality. And that's a poor way to run a game or tell a story. The game and the story belongs to the group. To me dice should only be cast if the participants are OK with all possible outcomes of the roll. Otherwise, why consult the dice? Just choose the outcome you want and play that.

Do I want my rulebook to be heavy or light?

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I don't think you understand fully understand system complexity. Go only has 3 rules but is one of the most complex games ever devised. The rules of chess can be written on one page. Each card in Magic The Gathering is effectively a rule case - and while the tournament rules take nearly 200 pages, the beginner's overview needed to play still is under 10 pages. All of these have little to do with how thick or light the rulebook is. Page count isn't the problem. Consistency, for most RPG's but especially older ones, is the problem. AD&D 1e and 2e are particularly bad offenders - some rolls must be high, some low, some skills use d20, others use percentile. In building my own system I'm wanting a consistent core that can be described in under ten pages, with basic classes and races taking a page each. I'm not concerned with how large the book becomes as long as it is consistent. Another advantage of consistency is when situations come up that aren't accounted for in the book, the GM should be able to extrapolate the existing rules to cover those situations. But if the rules cannot do this for lack of consistency or what have you, and instead 'rule 0' has to be invoked, then the rule system was lacking and inflexible to begin with - the designer has failed.

Michael Morris said:

I'm not concerned with how large the book becomes as long as it is consistent.

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Got it.

Your examples of system-complexity look more like examples of difficulty-to-master. Maybe it's just me.

I think the most important thing is that you refer to the GM in this game as the Prima Donna!

Heh, heh.

Prima is a playtest name. I'm open suggestions to a final name, although it likely will be bound to the Dusk setting so tightly it may as well be named with it.

Anyway, I've been working on traits and skills. At the moment there are only ten traits. There will probably be around 30 skills, not including weapon and spell proficiencies. The traits are:

• Attack The character's talent at melee and missile attack. Essentially the base attack bonus of the character.
• Awareness This is checked for initiative, reflex saves, and perception.
• Lore The character's base knowledge is their lore. Skills allow a character to pick a specific area of knowledge - and these stack. So, in a sense, this is the bardic knowledge class ability.
• Resilience: The system equivalent of hit points. See below.
• Fortitude: Rolled with constitution for fortitude saving, with charisma for willpower saves (charisma has been assigned the task of being the mental resilience stat), and with intelligence for concentration checks (open to suggestions for three other checks for the other three ability stats).
• Magic Use: Each of the five types of magic (Aboran, Balcran, Shunran, Sodran and Valran) has its own usage trait.

To review, characters get a trait point every even level. You cannot promote the same trait twice in a row.

Hit points and damage
In Savage Worlds, a character has toughness, then up to three wounds. Once the damage passes the toughness value, every 4 points over is a wound. After playing the game nearly three years I've noted this is one of the slowest moments in the game - it isn't natural to work by units of 4. That said, I like the concept, and have been testing the following.

In Prima when you are hit you are at least shaken, and for every 10 hit points of damage you take you take a wound. When your wounds exceed your resilience you are battered. When your wounds exceed your resilience and constitution, you're knocked out. If you take 10 or more damage in that state, you're dead.

Since this is decimal based, the calculation of it should move faster than the multiples of 4 approach Savage Worlds uses. The lack of a toughness buffer is offset by tougher characters being allowed to have higher resilience. Further notes.

Wounds against resilience recover quickly. A long rest (8 hours) recovers all resilience. Wounds against constitution however recover slowly - one / day at most and I'm considering requiring a check to actually recover the wound.

Spells which attempt to charm, dominate or otherwise control a foe deal damage against resilience + charisma. Fatigue works against strength + resilience.

Thoughts?

I think the most important thing is that you refer to the GM in this game as the Prima Donna!