Cultural appropriation in writing?

Nellisir · Mar 23, 2014

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:
Here is a question for the writers and readers here, particularly anyone with a background from somewhere besides America or Europe.

How do you feel about someone writing or creating a story in your country or among your people, culture, etc, if they are not a part of your ethnicity? To whit, can it be legitimately argued something like “Bridge of Birds,” a fantasy about ancient China, is racist, guilty of cultural appropriation or perpetuating some variation of the “noble savage” idea?

To a lesser degree this happens all the time among “western” nations and that arguably makes them all acceptable target. For example, Naomi Novik’s Temeraire series is not likely to be accused of racism and other problems when the characters are running around England, France, Germany and possibly even Russia. But what about when they are in China, Africa and South America?

Scalped was a comic book series about Ogala Lakota, but the series is written by a white guy from Alabama. Is that automatically a problem?

Going back to OP's question, I feel like I take issue with the notion of cultural appropriation itself. I just read a quote that seems appropriate "offense is taken, not given". What cultures are sacrosanct? Why? How finely can this be parsed? Is a country? A state? A county? A town? A neighborhood? You _can_ take offense, but people really need to also recognize that their right to their (negative) opinion does not overwhelm someone else's right to expression.

It gets very weird for me when people insist on doing, or not doing, something, to avoid offending a group even though that group isn't offended. I wear a kilt to contra dances. It's a plain black "modern" denim "utility" kilt. A friend admired it. I suggested she get one. She said she couldn't; it wouldn't be right; she wasn't Scottish. I pointed out that there are registered tartans for almost every country in the world, and it's an article of clothing, not a flag. She insists that it would be offensive for her to wear one (I recall thinking that that would only be true if she was English, but I might not have said it). I dropped it at that point.

Umbran · Mar 23, 2014

Nellisir said:
Going back to OP's question, I feel like I take issue with the notion of cultural appropriation itself.

On the one hand, taking ideas and using them is what humans do. Asking us to never do that is like asking us not to eat.

On the other hand, folks can be big dismissive jerks about how they take things from other cultures. There is a point where thoughtlessness on your part shows disrespect - and then they aren't taking offense, you are giving it.

That's why I said one should learn about what you're taking, and use it wisely. So, like, maybe you shouldn't take someone else's serious religious iconography and use it as a print on the fabric of your new line of doggie clothes.

Grumpy RPG Reviews · Mar 23, 2014

Person A does not get to decide if they have offended Person B. Person A might well possess good intentions, or bad ones, but they do not get to decide for others if others get to be offended. Person B gets to decide if they are offended.

Umbran · Mar 23, 2014

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:
Person A does not get to decide if they have offended Person B. Person A might well possess good intentions, or bad ones, but they do not get to decide for others if others get to be offended. Person B gets to decide if they are offended.

To a point. There are also, unfortunately, those who are willing to engage in, for lack of a better term, "manufactured outrage", taking offense when none is really called for.

An acquaintance of mine, for example, took offense at people eating Asian food, and putting soy sauce on white rice. I kid you not.

Nellisir · Mar 23, 2014

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:
Person A does not get to decide if they have offended Person B. Person A might well possess good intentions, or bad ones, but they do not get to decide for others if others get to be offended. Person B gets to decide if they are offended.

As I said, they are taking offense.

The quote I used came from a discussion about when it's appropriate to ban books.

Edit: Actually, this is perfect. You are exactly right. Person A does not get to choose. They can't "give" offense to person B; only person B can choose whether or not to be offended. Person A could, at best, "offer" an offense.

For instance: you could moon me. That's an offensive act. You're showing your buttocks to me in an act of derison.
If you were "giving" offense, I would have to be offended. I would get upset, demand recompense, have you arrested for public indecency, and so forth.
BUT
It's not your choice. I don't have to take offense. I can ignore you and your shining white hindparts. I can hold my nose and point and laugh (which might cause you to take offense). I could ask what's got you so upset. It's MY choice.

Person B does not get to choose Person A's actions; Person A does not get to choose Person B's reactions.

Kramodlog · Mar 23, 2014

Umbran said:
An acquaintance of mine, for example, took offense at people eating Asian food, and putting soy sauce on white rice. I kid you not.

White rice supremecist? /rim shot

Nellisir · Mar 23, 2014

Umbran said:
On the other hand, folks can be big dismissive jerks about how they take things from other cultures. There is a point where thoughtlessness on your part shows disrespect - and then they aren't taking offense, you are giving it.

So I should stop putting soy sauce on rice? Neither is my "cultural heritage", so who am I to say what is "appropriate"? You can't have it both ways; you can't say I need to respect other people's cultures and do what they want, and then say that I can choose what I think is silly and what isn't.

So, like, maybe you shouldn't take someone else's serious religious iconography and use it as a print on the fabric of your new line of doggie clothes.

Or take the image of a religion's founder and use it in a cartoon?

Ok, I've stricken out a paragraph here because it got into religion a bit further than I thought would past muster, but there are religions much, much closer to home than Islam for Umbran (if he's in New England) and I that do not use religious iconography because to do so was offensive to the religion's founders.

I understand respect, but my respect ends when you start abrogating my right to freedom of expression. I have the _right_ to offend you, and there may even be times when I am right to do so. Many people find images of war, death, disease, poverty, abuse, and sexuality offensive; should we stop publishing those?

Sometimes we act in a manner that we can be almost certain offend certain people. That's life. We always act in a manner that will, in some situation, offend somebody. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Ultimately, that decision on whether or not to take offense is up to them. You control your own reactions.

Morrus · Mar 23, 2014

Nellisir said:
So I should stop putting soy sauce on rice? Neither is my "cultural heritage", so who am I to say what is "appropriate"? You can't have it both ways; you can't say I need to respect other people's cultures and do what they want, and then say that I can choose what I think is silly and what isn't.

Or take the image of a religion's founder and use it in a cartoon?

[/COLOR]Ok, I've stricken out a paragraph here because it got into religion a bit further than I thought would past muster, but there are religions much, much closer to home than Islam for Umbran (if he's in New England) and I that do not use religious iconography because to do so was offensive to the religion's founders.

I understand respect, but my respect ends when you start abrogating my right to freedom of expression. I have the _right_ to offend you, and there may even be times when I am right to do so. Many people find images of war, death, disease, poverty, abuse, and sexuality offensive; should we stop publishing those?

Sometimes we act in a manner that we can be almost certain offend certain people. That's life. We always act in a manner that will, in some situation, offend somebody. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Ultimately, that decision on whether or not to take offense is up to them. You control your own reactions.

Nobody's trying to tell you you don't have a legal right to say what you want. They're talking about manners. We have the power to choose not to do something we're not legally prevented from doing.

The thought of people confusing these two things is quite scary.

Nellisir · Mar 23, 2014

Morrus said:
Nobody's trying to tell you you don't have a legal right to say what you want. They're talking about manners. We have the power to choose not to do something we're not legally prevented from doing.
The thought of people confusing these two things is quite scary.

There's absolutely no way you can argue that cultural mores do not have a way of becoming law, and that it is a very, very slippery slope. Yes, it's scary. It's absolutely f*ing terrifying. That's why this thread scares the piss out of me. People often, routinely, nonchalantly, confuse the two. Creationism becomes required science material to avoid offending one group. Abstinence-only sex-ed becomes mandatory to avoid offending another group. The Comics Code Authority is enacted because a third group is offended.

Nellisir · Mar 23, 2014

Morrus said:
Nobody's trying to tell you you don't have a legal right to say what you want. They're talking about manners. We have the power to choose not to do something we're not legally prevented from doing.

The thought of people confusing these two things is quite scary.

Or lets go your way; let's say we're talking about manners, not law. Manners are societal constructs that we use to regulate behavior. Manners matter because society enforces them. So society decides that writers shouldn't borrow from other cultures. How is that going to be enforced? Without law, the usual recourses are public shaming and/or ostracization. So if I write about the French, I get ostracized, or publicly shamed. Cross-cultural literature gets turned into pornography; you can't define it, but you know it when you see it. Authors get hate mail; death threats; their existing books downvoted to oblivion on Amazon.

Here are two (and a half) names that are currently undergoing public discipline for "bad manners": Lynn Shepherd & Miriam Weeks/Belle Knox. Neither has broken the law.

You can NOT start this ball rolling and expect it to stop when you say so.

Cultural appropriation in writing?

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