Need help designing a deity that isn't a total ripoff of Dibella from Elder Scrolls

System Ufera

First Post
Hello, everyone! As some of you may or may now know, I am designing my own Pen n' Paper RPG. As of right now, I'm trying to design a particular deity, an easygoing goddess of passion, beauty, and love (both romantic and carnal). Unfortunately, romance aside, that sounds a lot like Dibella from The Elder Scrolls series.

Now, given that the only aspects of this goddess I've come up with are her domains, a general idea of the culture that worships her pantheon, and what defines a deity in my game, I'm trying to come up with ways in which I can develop her, both in general and in such a way that I won't get sued.

With the domains already stated, I'll describe the culture here: The culture that worships her pantheon is a polytheistic theocracy governed directly by the deities of the pantheon and their servants. While the deities often get along at least enough to not cause civil war, there are some rivalries that will occasionally devolve into local skirmishes. Aesthetically, the culture derives heavily from the Middle East during ancient (pre-Islamic) times and medieval India. Their level of technology is about the same as that of the Middle East during the Crusades. The people are generally devout, although those who are in the service of a specific deity are often fanatical.

What defines a deity in my game is very different from other settings; basically, a deity is any being that has amassed a significant amount of power, who arranges pacts with lesser beings to grant some of that power as favors in exchange for the lesser beings' service. In the case of this goddess's pantheon, most deities started out as powerful wizards, sages, and/or aliens, and as over the years people sought their favor, the truth became obscured by praises and legends until people started worshiping them as gods.

So, yeah... I need help fleshing out this deity.

EDIT: I've settled on a name. The goddess's name is Im-Tinar.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
I'm not familiar with the reference, but I think the trick here if you want to have an original diety of this sort would be to broaden the domain of the deity. Carnal female fertility goddesses tend to be all pretty shallow - the 'bimbo' or the 'tart' is a trope that is as old as dirt. The tend to be very much fan services and obvious gods made in the image of man. However popular temple prostitution might be for packing the temples, I think there is a reason such dieties never seem to have a real hold over peoples imagination.

So I would make this deity primarily a deity associated with something other than fertility, sex, or 'love' but have whatever that thing is suggest the rest.

For example, a goddess of flowers is a fertility goddess explicitly. But by being not only an eros goddess (to use the proper term), she loses a lot of the shallowness associated with that particularly in how you can portray her cult. She picks up gardening and nature as part of her domain, including being the patron of bee keeping, becomes the giver of honey, and so forth. This gives her some depth and makes her something more than just a stock tramp or pretty faced bimbo the way Aphrodite and similar goddesses come off.

An even broader concept would be a goddess of beauty whose primary domain was actually art and artisanship, basically all the muses rolled into one, but who was also the goddess of romantic and perforce erotic love. Incidently since this is really a goddess of idealized things, if you want to play down the sex aspect and up the marriage/romance aspect of incarnation this would be one possibility.

Another way to take this is have the goddess explicitly worshiped as part of a married couple and be explicitly the patron of wives, women and marriage. In this way you remove some of the shallow bimbo, tramp aspect of it, and the sort of idealization you are going for here is myth making like a romantic comedy or a situation comedy.

I actually have all of that going on in my homebrew. The pantheon of my homebrew is often called 'the 1000 gods', by which people mean, 'a really large number'. The ideal at a metagame level is that there really is a deity for everything, and that any way that a person can relate to the world or an aspect of the world has a patron championing that viewpoint. So, I actually also have Aphrodite analogues as well. The above ideas are Dianciana the Goddess of Flowers. Her mother Aymara the Goddess of Beauty (by her husband Lado the Builder, God of Creation). A couple representative of martial bliss (in all of its expressions) are the fire gods Aratay the God of the Forge and his wife Anwen the goddess of the Hearth, who are patrons of virtue/manhood/fatherhood/work and virtue/femininity/motherhood/domesticity respectively and together make up an extremely popular cult. Both are effectively gods of passion, but passion in a control sense of desire subordinated to and paired with reason. And probably the single most popular religious cult on all of Korrel is the pairing of laughing Jord the God of Leisure with his serious acerbic wife Sesstra the Goddess of Work. Both are in their own way dogs of Joy, pleasure in work and pleasure in relaxation, and sense Jord is also the God of good humor and competitiveness (and in a certain sense laziness), the common folk take great delight in the stories of two dieties affairs with each other the way modern people in the real world,

Anyway, my point is that if you see passion, love, and sex in a particular context it becomes much less shallow of a thing than just generic passion and eros. Start with the idea the deity represents and move toward physicality as part of the expression of that idea, rather than starting with physicality and moving toward its most sterotyped expressions.

And of course, I'm sure that there are a lot of jumping off points depending on what you concieve eros is actually about. For example, if you think it is most interesting as some sort of spiritual and physical transcendance you could concievably have it part of the conception of the god/goddess of gnostic or metagnostic knowledge. This could be taken one of several ways, either coupling it with reason or making it the enemy of reason, for example a god/goddess of insanity. Or, and I didn't go into this much, you could take it completely different ways by making the diety male or androgenous. An example of this would Raniculus of the Daffodils, one of the dieties in my game world who is the god of pleasure, and expresses relaxed, self-centered, selfish, and narcisstic impluses.
 

frogimus

First Post
Dibella is pretty much a ripoff of Aphrodite. He temple is even reminiscent of a Greek or Roman temple although in the dwemer style architecture. I don't see much chance of copyright infringement as long as you stay generic.
 

System Ufera

First Post
(start off somewhere else, then work your way to the given concept)

That's actually a good idea. I was actually thinking of making the goddess, who I have decided to name "Im-Tinar," sort of a de facto deity to represent the Poruqe, which is a race in my game... that is, Im-Tinar isn't officially a deity of the Poruqe, but everything she represents is either what the Poruqe find valuable (beautiful or majestic things) or an non-exact copy or exaggeration of a common personality trait among the Poruqe (very few instinctive inhibitions or taboos regarding love or sex), she often appears in the form of a Poruqe, and even in-game, people unofficially associate Im-Tinar with the Poruqe. The reason I want to keep it de facto is because there are no "racial deities" in my game, and ideally I'd like to keep it that way.

That said, you mentioned making Im-Tinar a goddess of the arts. While that is the most obvious direction to go in a vacuum, it's also going to make her even more of a ripoff of Dibella, since the arts are also one of Dibella's domains.

However, you also mentioned idealizing things... that could work. Making the world an "ideal" version of itself would require making the world better, and it would solidify Im-Tinar's position as a "good" deity, since I've been trying to figure out ways to make her seem, at the very least, "better than neutral." It could also justify heretical sects that try to make the world a kind of "ideal," but not the kind of "ideal" that would be good. Also, arts could be subtly blended between idealization and beauty!

I may need more advice for fleshing Im-Tinar out (history, etc), but for what you've given me so far, thank you!
 

Celebrim

Legend
...very few instinctive inhibitions or taboos regarding love or sex...

While I know only the tiniest bit about Dibella having never played any of the Elder Scrolls, I think the reason you are going to find it hard to not find Im-Tinar to not be a ripoff of Dibella is that I think the core ideal or outlook behind them - promiscuity - is going to naturally manifest itself in the same ways. If the deities central relationship to eros is the same, and the deity is centrally about eros, then the deity in their basic essence and aspect is going to be the same. If you really want to be a difference here, you're going to have to really shift the focus and the viewpoint of the deity. For example, if you want to retain the promisquity then you are perhaps going to want to divorce Im-Tinar entirely from arts or beauty, and getting really non-greek and perhaps inhuman in the outlook on the purpose and usage of sexuality. You could for example make Im-Tinar a goddess of ugliness, humility, compassion, care and healing with the view point that sexuality is not something to possess, but inherently a kindness. Whether or not you want to conjoin that with the obvious aspect of sexuality as procreation or to have it stand as a separate purpose of sexuality in and of itself is another set of viewpoints within that.

I do think however such a viewpoint is going to make Im-Tinar into a very contriversial figure, far more so than Im-Tinar in the role of mere pornagraphic focus (as Aphrodite and I suspect Dibella) was. Comparitively speaking, people are comfortable with a shallow focus of eros as love of something desired or desirable because its hitting the lizard brain and typically not questioned because it is desired. The same promiscuity intellectualized and rationalized forces the question of whether promiscuity really can be a helpful, non-destructive, blessed mission in life. If Im-Tinar is actively upholding the idea of having sex with the undesirable, a goddess of genuine pity, then the question becomes is that really something people need, is that a real cure for loneliness, and can you really divorse (in all its senses) yourself from the objects and results of that act. If Im-Tinar is deliberately presenting herself as ugly to the beautiful, or subverting the notion of phsyical beauty though, that at least could be seen as something more than the mere hubris of the attractive.

Still even with all that difficulty, or maybe because of all that difficulty, I'd favor that sort of introspection over your typical goddess of 'getting laid to beautiful women'.

However, you also mentioned idealizing things... that could work. Making the world an "ideal" version of itself would require making the world better, and it would solidify Im-Tinar's position as a "good" deity, since I've been trying to figure out ways to make her seem, at the very least, "better than neutral." It could also justify heretical sects that try to make the world a kind of "ideal," but not the kind of "ideal" that would be good. Also, arts could be subtly blended between idealization and beauty!

The notion of making the world more beautiful by making it a better place, that physical beauty is merely the appropriate outward sign of sincere and real inner beauty, is core doctrine of Aymara mentioned above. I'd not that she's actually more the goddess of chaste love than erotic love though, and is among the least promiscuos of the dieties. She has no dalliance with anyone. It's full on devotion to her spouse Lado. In this way I don't find her like Dibella at all.

Now if you want a different sort of take on that, the god Pitarian is the God of Fools - and generally patronized by jesters and the like. He's married to Tholumessa the fire goddess, who is the goddess of unrestricted passion, wantonness and destruction. Tholumessa is the least devoted deity in the pantheon. She dallies with everyone and everything, rendering Pitarian the foremost cockold in the universe. Pitarian though remains utterly and completely faithful to her, not just in action, but in heart. That itself is another take on what means to be a god of love.
 
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System Ufera

First Post
While I know only the tiniest bit about Dibella having never played any of the Elder Scrolls.

Ah, I should probably have posted a link to Dibella's Lore article on the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages Wiki, so you at least have a place to start if you want to know more about her. It's not much, but if I recall correctly, she's not the most involved deity in the actual Elder Scrolls gameplay.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dibella

I think the reason you are going to find it hard to not find Im-Tinar to not be a ripoff of Dibella is that I think the core ideal or outlook behind them - promisquity - is going to naturally manifest itself in the same ways.

Well, it's not so much that promiscuity is one of Im-Tinar's core ideals; it's more that love in general is one of the core ideals, and there are few restrictions on what sort of love it may be. In fact, I'd say that Im-Tinar would place love and sex in two separate-yet-related categories, and love is more important. It's kind of complicated and hard to explain, but I'll try anyway.

It's not so much that Im-Tinar specifically endorses sex, but rather that the rest of society sees sex as "dirty" or "bad," and Im-Tinar and her followers are a minority that simply doesn't think that same thing. However, the rest of society thinks that their own beliefs are the "default" beliefs, and so they confuse Im-Tinar's overall lack of a stance toward sex as being a stance in and of itself.

However, Im-Tinar does actually condemn certain sexual acts that "betray" love, such as secretly cheating on your lover (though an "open relationship" is okay, as long as your lover knows and is fine with it). Im-Tinar also strongly condemns rape as a perversion of both love and sex.

...that physical beauty is merely the appropriate outward sign of sincere and real inner beauty...

Perhaps I should try to re-phrase what I said earlier: I've designed her to be sort of a de facto deity that personifies the definition of the Poruqe, which is almost like an entire specie filled with classic fantasy bards and muses. The Poruqe love beauty, not so much as a set standard of "what makes something beautiful," but rather the general concept of beauty (especially since what makes something beautiful is subjective). In other words, it's more than physical attractiveness; for example, more heroically-inclined Poruqe would find a well-told epic story to be beautiful, or perhaps an invigorating song or painting.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Well, it's not so much that promiscuity is one of Im-Tinar's core ideals; it's more that love in general is one of the core ideals, and there are few restrictions on what sort of love it may be.

Well, to quibble, I find those to be inherently the same thing.

In fact, I'd say that Im-Tinar would place love and sex in two separate-yet-related categories, and love is more important. It's kind of complicated and hard to explain, but I'll try anyway.

I love the English language, but it's woefully underequipped to discuss the topic of 'love'. Generally the word is used to mean a variaty of in some cases completely unrelated topics and ideas. I would much prefer if we distinguish what we mean by love in a particular context by using the Greek, if you are familiar with it.

For example, "Im-Tinar also strongly condemns rape as a perversion of both love and sex.", is very modern and all but rape - while clearly being the opposite of 'love' as a modern English speaker would define it - is not the opposite of or even opposed to the concept of eros. To quote Olaf from Frozen, giving one conventional definition of love (that I happen to like), "love is putting someone else’s needs above your own". But eros, which is often translated as 'love' in English, and its overall traits often displayed in English media (movies, books, etc.) under the general heading love actually means more like "the desire to possess". Under that definition, you can rape someone you 'love' and it is not a contridiction but an expression of 'love'. This can be seen in the very common rape motif that appears in Greek myth. In fact, in Greek myth when men 'love' a woman, there first and overwhelming desire is to rape her. This was not seen as contridictory at the time and while it disgusts us now (I'd hope), that general definition of love is extremely common in society so that in general when someone speaks of 'love' in English the notion of 'the desire to possess' and 'to put someone else's needs above your own' are bound up together as if they werent' (mostlly) in contridiction.

It's not so much that Im-Tinar specifically endorses sex, but rather that the rest of society sees sex as "dirty" or "bad," and Im-Tinar and her followers are a minority that simply doesn't think that same thing.

This is going to be really hard to explain outside of very modern conceptions that depend on a history your world is probably not going to share with our own. Indeed, Im-Tinar is increasingly sounding to me as if she only makes sense in the real world post 1960's. If Im-Tinar is the god of love as Olaf from frozen defined it, then she need not also be the god of eros nor even think them related. If Im-Tinar is the god of love in the erotic sense, then she need not be necessarily concerned with love as Olaf defined it. If somehow she is both the god of love as Olaf defined it and the god of eros, then she has to reconcile those two positions. I don't know how you do that while having "few restrictions on what sort of love it may be", because clearly the desire to possess and the desire to put someone elses needs first are in some amount of contridiction. You yourself later introduce at least 2 restrictions - not betraying, consensual, on the expression of 'love' as the unity of those things. I think more would probably occur to us as we discussed it.

However, the rest of society thinks that their own beliefs are the "default" beliefs, and so they confuse Im-Tinar's overall lack of a stance toward sex as being a stance in and of itself.

I'm not sure how that is actually confusion. To not take a stance is generally correctly regarded as a stance itself - the passive stance.

However, Im-Tinar does actually condemn certain sexual acts that "betray" love, such as secretly cheating on your lover (though an "open relationship" is okay, as long as your lover knows and is fine with it).

Again, Im-Tinar strikes me as anachronistic here. For example, under traditional Hindu traditions regarding 'love' - say as outlined in the Kama Sutra - secretly cheating on a lover because you desired someone else (or under about a dozen other reasons) wouldn't have been seen as a betrayal of love but a celebration of it. Instead of actually espousing her own coherent position, she seems to be striking an incoherent position which is mostly defined by the ways it is in opposition to the orthodox or rival position - though without defining why that position should be orthodox in the first place. Why is In-Tinar's view not the default view of society? What makes her have so little influence?

The Poruqe love beauty, not so much as a set standard of "what makes something beautiful," but rather the general concept of beauty (especially since what makes something beautiful is subjective).

Is it? That too is a stance on beauty that will need to be decided on. Not all goddesses of beauty would agree. The idea of the inverted goddess of beauty I mentioned earlier - a goddess of ugly - was precisely that beauty was subjective. But if you can't also be a goddess of ugly, then certainly you aren't a goddess that says beauty is subjective. The Greeks certainly didn't feel beauty was subjective. They would have defined beauty as the thing that inspires eros - the desire to possess it - and would have mostly believed that it was a universal attribute. Certainly the Poruqe as you describe them don't seem to be the sorts that think beauty is subjective. Rather the opposite, they seem to believe that beauty is the ideal - an external Platonic reality to strive to - and that ugly, far from being a mere perception existing only in the mind, is a real flaw in reality.
 

System Ufera

First Post
(lots o' stuff)

Well, these are all good points...

As far as the anachronism issue goes, I admit that it is happening, but is it really a problem? It's a fictional setting, after all, and there's no requirement that it must reflect any given thing that came before it.

As far as the different kinds of love goes, I didn't even realize it at first, but Im-Tinar is more and more resembling what little I know of the concept of Starfire from the Teen Titans comics (I could be wrong, since most of what I "know" about it is pieced together from various Cracked.com articles and my own assumptions about what DC was trying to do with the concept). Basically, Im-Tinar is kind of an "outsider," who is confused by what she sees as arbitrary and nonsensical values in society.

To clarify, I'll take back what I said earlier about there being few restrictions on what sort of love is okay, since it's kind of a misspoken statement with inaccurate implications. When I said that earlier statement, I was using the word "love" as shorthand for not only itself, but also the expressions of love, and the actions in which it manifests; while convenient, it's not exactly accurate.

Basically, her definition of "love" is that it is passionate attraction (like Eros) that is tempered by the requirement that there must be greater care for the interests and well-being recipient of the attraction's than for oneself (like Olaf). To Im-Tinar, a feeling merely being passionate attraction is not enough for said feeling to be love (more like selfish lust), and caring more for another than for oneself without being passionately attracted to the other is just really good friendship. To Im-Tinar, love, in and of itself, is no less, and no more, than that.

That said, building a relationship on love would be its own concept; it would require the presence of love, of course, but it would be recognized that more conditions would be necessary for there to be a relationship, and even more for the relationship to function well. That's where mutuality, consent and honesty (and other concepts that I don't haven't taken the right courses in college to understand) come into play. At that point, I guess it's safe to say that Im-Tinar's domain of love covers not only love itself, but also the relationships it builds.

There are ways in which love is expressed, such as sex, but the connection is unnecessary and more symbolic than anything else. Because there is still a symbolic connection recognized by most of society, Im-Tinar recognizes that some couples would be offended by sex outside the couple's union, but it's not the act of having sex so much as the betrayal of the terms of the union that Im-Tinar has a problem with. If a couple came together with the terms that neither would eat a certain type of food (arbitrary and strange though that may be), if that type of food were eaten by one of the members of the couple, the terms would be betrayed, and Im-Tinar would not be happy. In other words, to Im-Tinar, to betray love has little to do with what action is performed.

So, at that point, sex itself would probably be categorized as part of a larger domain separate from love, perhaps "pleasure." I dunno. My head's been hurting for a couple days now, and I kind of want to rest after writing, rewriting, rethinking, and correcting all of the things I just said. I'll discuss beauty later.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Well, these are all good points...

As far as the anachronism issue goes, I admit that it is happening, but is it really a problem?

Not really. I just don't find it particularly creative if the actual philosophical undergirding of your setting is, "It's an unconscious mashup of Judeo-Christian and Greek beliefs, with sexual mores set in the immediate aftermath of discovering advanced sanitation, antibiotics, and birth control.... only Judeo-Christian, Greek, advanced santitation, antibiotics, and birth control won't actually appear in the setting." And in particular, with regards to your topic, if you do have that as the undergirding, it's going to almost impossible to not have your 'goddess of love' be a DiBella like neo-pagan rip off of Aphrodite with a gloss of Judeo-Christian's morals welded klunkily to a general 'if it feels good, do it' attitute. You might could put that all together in some way different than DiBella depending on how realized DiBella is, but it will require conscious understanding of your building materials.

And in any event, if it's just standins for moral systems of the moment, as a personal preference, "Meh."

It's a fictional setting, after all, and there's no requirement that it must reflect any given thing that came before it.

It's your setting and in practice few players want to dig into it enough to find out if it is more than superficial, but in general this is not something I believe to be true. But then, I'm a Tolkien fan. I expect a setting to be a like a rich deep loam that you can really sink into.

Basically, Im-Tinar is kind of an "outsider," who is confused by what she sees as arbitrary and nonsensical values in society.

I'm fairly confused by anyone that would view any society and consider the values arbitary. 'Wrong' I could understand, but even those I don't agree with or which repluse me are not arbitrary. What causes her to believe that they are arbitrary other than ignorance? If she is an outsider, where is she from? What was it about that place that caused her to form her opinions?

Basically, her definition of "love" is that it is passionate attraction (like Eros) that is tempered by the requirement that there must be greater care for the interests and well-being recipient of the attraction's than for oneself (like Olaf). To Im-Tinar, a feeling merely being passionate attraction is not enough for said feeling to be love (more like selfish lust), and caring more for another than for oneself without being passionately attracted to the other is just really good friendship. To Im-Tinar, love, in and of itself, is no less, and no more, than that.

Ok, so that's sort of interesting. That makes Im-Tinar the goddess of a particular sort of love. To get back to Frozen again, to Im-Tinar true love wasn't expressed by the love between the sisters - which was mere affection or feelings of sisterly duty - and wasn't expressed by Hans the ice seller when he gave Anna to Hans thinking that this was what was best for her. In fact, that was a betrayal of love, a violation of proper loving behavior because he should have acted on his passion (though frankly, it wasn't clear to me he had any). Likewise, Olaf when he builds a fire isn't expressing love for Anna either, because he has no passionate attraction to her. Again, Olaf might only be expressing mere feelings of duty and obligation. The only love in the movie is when Hans the Ice Seller passionately returns to Anna with the intention of professing his desire for her. Anything else, being less or more than that, wasn't love.

There are ways in which love is expressed, such as sex, but the connection is unnecessary and more symbolic than anything else.

I'm not sure I get how that fits. Without the passionate desire, isn't it just friendship? What's the key expression of the desire, the eros, part of this equation? In the high middle ages, the concept of eros got subverted (in theory at least) by replacing the idea that the natural expression of eros wasn't 'the desire to possess', but rather natural and correct eros consisted of 'the desire to worship and revere'. In this way (in theory at least), romantic love and even eros could be expressed with purely chaste intentions, with the object of your eros maintained in a pure and idealized state, untainted by possible unnatural cravings to possess or be possessed. But I'm not sure if that is what you are going for here.

In other words, to Im-Tinar, to betray love has little to do with what action is performed.

That part I do see how fits. Though again, sanitation, antibiotics, and birth control.

My head's been hurting for a couple days now, and I kind of want to rest after writing, rewriting, rethinking, and correcting all of the things I just said. I'll discuss beauty later.

Take your time. I'm trying to learn as I think about this as well.
 

System Ufera

First Post
Not really. I just don't find it particularly creative if the actual philosophical undergirding of your setting is, "It's an unconscious mashup of Judeo-Christian and Greek beliefs, with sexual mores set in the immediate aftermath of discovering advanced sanitation, antibiotics, and birth control.... only Judeo-Christian, Greek, advanced santitation, antibiotics, and birth control won't actually appear in the setting." And in particular, with regards to your topic, if you do have that as the undergirding, it's going to almost impossible to not have your 'goddess of love' be a DiBella like neo-pagan rip off of Aphrodite with a gloss of Judeo-Christian's morals welded klunkily to a general 'if it feels good, do it' attitute. You might could put that all together in some way different than DiBella depending on how realized DiBella is, but it will require conscious understanding of your building materials.

...Judeo-Christian? Where are you getting that from? Also, I don't quite understand why you mention knowledge of science and technology. Related to that, however, is something I feel I should mention now, just in case it becomes relevant later (as things usually end up being when I don't mention them beforehand): Magic, in my setting, is basically another form of technology, in that it works for a reason. That reason is that magic is just another feature of the universe's natural laws, and as such, in order to use magic effectively, you'll have to be well-versed in those natural laws. In other words, magic is an application of science, and wizards are basically applied scientists, albeit with an entirely different set of tools. That also means that the knowledge possessed by powerful wizards would have to be as advanced as our own knowledge in the real world today, if not more advanced. Of course, that only represents what the wizards themselves know; whether or not they share that knowledge is another story. In Parodesh (the nation that Im-Tinar's pantheon is worshiped in), for example, the spread of scientific knowledge is highly regulated, since the nation is highly religious, and anyone with significant power that doesn't come from the gods is usually considered a threat.

Warning: The next part is about knowledge and such in the rest of the setting. It is a huge continuation of this tangent, which is why I am putting it in a spoiler block.

[sblock]In the other nations, it's different. People in Gondrogar, for example, usually think that magic use beyond basic, untrained sorcery, and indeed most uses of academic knowledge unrelated to warfare, is an excuse for the weak and dishonorable to gain power that they don't deserve (by the way, the biological limits on how powerful one's body can potentially be are vastly expanded in my game compared to real life, so a military made up of brutes armed with low-tech weaponry and little to no magic isn't necessarily suicidal).

In the Calmekanni Wasteland, there's an atmospheric anomaly that makes magic energy regenerate much more slowly than everywhere else, so the people there improvised by using their knowledge to develop advanced machinery. However, ever since the Calmekanni nation was basically destroyed by the Baalican Empire (see next paragraph) about a century prior to present day, most of that machinery, as well as most of the knowledge required to make it, is lost.

In Milandria, knowledge up to a level about equal to the 8th Grade in real-life America is very cheap, though not absolutely necessary, to obtain; more advanced knowledge is much more expensive, though businesses or guilds will often pay most of the bill for a prospective employee that shows promise. Also, since Milandria was founded in revolution against the tyrannical Baalican Empire (which, thanks to the revolution, no longer exists) about 50 years ago, the Milandrians strongly value freedom; thus, the use of "Charm" spells, which forcibly modify the thoughts of the target, is perhaps one of the most illegal things in Milandria, to the degree that there's a governmental organization whose sole duty is to determine whether or not applicants to a paramilitary unit specializing in combating users of such magic should be trusted with the knowledge required to do so.

Then, there's the Remiel Merchant League, an organization of international merchants that has gained autonomy, as though it was its own nation. They have plenty of knowledge, though most of the advanced scientific knowledge they have is taught to high-paying students from the other nations, and most of their research is done on a leisurely basis rather than out of necessity. The fact that their organization has a monopoly on many rare and valuable natural resources means that the right to trade with them is too valuable for the other nations to risk by going to war, so what little military they have is in the form of either mercenaries hired to protect merchant ships, or covert operatives whose purpose is to keep secure the knowledge of where the Remiel Merchant League gets its resources.[/sblock]


It's your setting and in practice few players want to dig into it enough to find out if it is more than superficial, but in general this is not something I believe to be true. But then, I'm a Tolkien fan. I expect a setting to be a like a rich deep loam that you can really sink into.

Well, I never said it wouldn't be deep, or anything like that. What I said was basically that, as my own setting, I and I alone get the final say on what is or isn't true in the setting, and I have no obligation to make the setting true to or consistent with any other setting.

I'm fairly confused by anyone that would view any society and consider the values arbitary. 'Wrong' I could understand, but even those I don't agree with or which repluse me are not arbitrary. What causes her to believe that they are arbitrary other than ignorance? If she is an outsider, where is she from? What was it about that place that caused her to form her opinions?

The "arbitrary" aspect is because Im-Tinar sees certain folkways of society regarding love, sex, and decency as, at best, not serving a purpose. She could, for example, understand why someone would want to wear clothing to serve the purpose of protection or to keep "floppy bits" from uncomfortably flopping around at the slightest movement. What she doesn't understand is why not wearing clothing is considered indecent and made illegal for the purposes of decency, and she and her followers only reluctantly obey such decency laws so that they don't suffer the wrath of the rest of society.

As for being an "outsider," Im-Tinar isn't from a different location so much as she is simply the kind of person who, for whatever reason, was never the type to just go along with things simply because "that's they way it is." I haven't figured out what that reason should be, though; maybe she has abnormal psychology?

Ok, so that's sort of interesting. That makes Im-Tinar the goddess of a particular sort of love. To get back to Frozen again, to Im-Tinar true love wasn't expressed by the love between the sisters - which was mere affection or feelings of sisterly duty - and wasn't expressed by Hans the ice seller when he gave Anna to Hans thinking that this was what was best for her. In fact, that was a betrayal of love, a violation of proper loving behavior because he should have acted on his passion (though frankly, it wasn't clear to me he had any). Likewise, Olaf when he builds a fire isn't expressing love for Anna either, because he has no passionate attraction to her. Again, Olaf might only be expressing mere feelings of duty and obligation. The only love in the movie is when Hans the Ice Seller passionately returns to Anna with the intention of professing his desire for her. Anything else, being less or more than that, wasn't love.

While it would seem lazy on my part, I'm actually considering having there be separate words for those separate types of love in the Parodeshi language simply because I can't think of any other way to deal with this issue. That is, there would be a word meaning what we consider "love for one's family," a word for "selfless caring and giving," and a word for the type of love covered by Im-Tinar's domain. That way, there can still be recognition of those other types of "love" while leaving Im-Tinar's domain intact. Like I said, I myself think it seems lazy, but I can't think of anything else to do about that.

I'm not sure I get how that fits. Without the passionate desire, isn't it just friendship?
(etc.)

Well, a lack of sex does not necessarily mean a lack of passionate desire. Either way, the purpose of that statement was more to lead into the idea that it's not the way in which one betrays the terms of their union, but rather the fact that one is betraying the terms of the union at all, that Im-Tinar condemns. It wasn't supposed to be a statement in and of itself, basically.

That part I do see how fits. Though again, sanitation, antibiotics, and birth control.

I still don't get why you're mentioning those things.
 

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