Specialist Rogue

One of the problems with the current rogue is that it is very focused on traps, and ability that is very relevant in old skool dungeons, but less so in more diverse adventures. How about we regard this as one possible rogue specialization among many. By providing alternative versions of trapfinding and trap sense, we open up more jobs to the rogue than mine clearing. Similar to how a sorcerer chooses bloodline, a specialist rogue would pick a specialization.

Here it that idea expressed as a rogue archetype:


Specialist Rogue

A specialist rogue is focused on a certain role. The standard rogue can be said to be a traps specialist. This archetypes allows for alternate specializations in other roles.

Class Skills The specialist rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str). Depending on her specialization, a specialist rogue gains additional class skills.

Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Rogue Specialization

At first level, a specialist rogue must select a specialist role, which decides her class skills and how her specialist focus and specialist awareness abilities work. This replaces trapfinding and trap sense.

Backstabber
The backstabber is an athletic combat specialist focused on getting enemies in vulnerable positions and exploiting the advantage as hard as possible.

Class Skills: Add Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Knowledge (Planes) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), to the list of class skills.

Specialist Focus: The backstabber adds 1/2 her level to Knowledge skill checks made to identify the abilities of enemies, and can make such checks unskilled. She add the same bonus to all Acrobatics skill checks to move through threatened squares (minimum +1) and can do so at full speed without penalty.

Specialist Awareness: The backstabber learns to use her enemies as cover. At third level, the backstabber gains a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class and Reflex saves when she is in a position where she is outflanked or outflanks an enemy. These bonuses rise to +2 when the specialist rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Face
The face is a charming criminal. She runs negotiations with other gangs, fences, and specialists, bribes officials, runs protection rackets, and maintains the fear and loyalty that holds the gang's territory together. As an independent, she can be an adventurous merchant, con artist, fixer, or gambler.

Class Skills: Add Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha), to the list of class skills.

Specialist Focus: The face adds 1/2 her level to Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks (minimum +1).

Specialist Awareness: At 3rd level, a face reacts intuitively to danger and can take a double move in a surprise round, even when she would not normally be allowed to act. This also gives her a +1 bonus on Initiative and a +1 dodge bonus to AC during a surprise round and in rounds when she does nothing but move. These bonuses rise to +2 when the specialist rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Fence
A specialist in appraising, laundering, and selling stolen and hot property, the fence tries to stay away from physical threats. Her special talents lies in avoiding detection and spotting curses before they cause any harm.

Class Skills: Add Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha), to the list of class skills.

Specialist Focus: The fence adds 1/2 her level to Craft skill checks made to forge or launder an item, to Linguistics checks made to forge an item's credentials, and to all Appraise skill checks (minimum +1). While appraising an item, she can use the Appraise skill to spot a cursed item (DC 15 + the cursed item's caster level) without triggering the curse.

Specialist Awareness: At 3rd level, a fence a special skill at avoiding curses and detection, giving her a +1 bonus on Will saves against divination magic. She is allowed a Will saving throw against any divination effect, even ones that do not normally allow a saving throw such as ''detect magic''. Items she has stowed away count as being in her possession for saving throws against divination magic and uses her saving throws. These bonuses rise to +2 when the specialist rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Pickpocket
A pickpocket is a specialist in minor street crime, mainly pick-pocketing and purse cutting, but at higher levels also the stealing of letters, compromising evidence, and other small items. Most pickpockets are youths or children with little skill, those who make a career of this need to be able to maintain a veneer of respectability to gain admittance to the scene of the crime .

Class Skills: Add Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha), to the list of class skills.

Specialist Focus: The pickpocket adds 1/2 her level to Disguise skill checks as long as the disguise is only in minor details (generally to fit into a social context), on Stealth checks to hide in a crowd as long as she is disguised to fit into that group, and to Sleight of Hand skill checks (minimum +1).

Specialist Awareness: At 3rd level, a pickpocket gains the ability to disappear in a crowd, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made against her as long as she is in a crowd (see urban adventures) or there are at least 4 other creatures adjacent to her. These bonuses rise to +2 when the specialist rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Point Man
The point man is a dedicated lookout and scout, the first to advance into unknown territory and covering the backs of others while they do what they have to do.

Class Skills: Add Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Ride (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), to the list of class skills.

Specialist Focus: The point man adds 1/2 her level to Disable device skill checks made to open doors and other openings and to Perception skill checks (minimum +1).

Specialist Awareness: At 3rd level, a point man gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to newly arrived enemies, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made in the first round of regular combat (not a surprise round). These bonuses rise to +2 when the specialist rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Runner
A runners is a delivery girl and mobility and getaway expert. A runner runs contraband short distances and is often the fastest and most reliable way to deliver a message. A runner is also an excellent second-storey man, able to get to places no-one thought needed security.

Class Skills: Add Climb (Str), Knowledge (Engineering) (Int), Ride (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha), to the list of class skills.

Specialist Focus: The runner adds 1/2 her level to Knowledge skill checks made to know a shortcut, best route, or to know where a person can be found at the moment, and to all Acrobatics skill checks (minimum +1). A runner can use Acrobatics to climb as long as she uses accelerated climbing.

Specialist Awareness: At 3rd level, a runner gains the ability to run and dodge, giving her a +1 bonus on Initiative at all times and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC in any round in which she only moves or interacts with terrain and unattended objects. These bonuses rise to +2 when the specialist rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Scoundrel
The scoundrel is a rogue specializing in versatility. This happy-go-lucky individual can stand in for any more specialized rogue and makes a great solo operative.

Class Skills: Add Climb (Str), Linguistics (Int), Ride (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), to the list of class skills.

Specialist Focus: The scoundrel lacks a specialist focus.

Specialist Awareness: The scoundrel is a great improviser and talented in many areas. At third level, a scoundrel gains a +1 bonus on Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Stealth (Dex) skill checks. These bonuses rise to +2 when the specialist rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Smuggler
A smuggler delivers cargoes between distant destinations. His main skill is to avoid detection, it is just not economical to try to force your way past customs and barriers. A smuggler needs to know his vehicle and the terrain he operates in better than anyone.

Class Skills: Add Climb (Str), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), to the list of class skills.

Specialist Focus: The smuggler adds 1/2 her level to Profession skill checks made to run a vehicle or caravan (such as teamster or sailor) and to all Stealth skill checks (minimum +1). She can use her Stealth skill modifier to hide a vehicle or caravan she is running (including any passengers), but suffer the Stealth size penalty for the size of the vehicle or caravan.

Specialist Awareness: At 3rd level, a smuggler gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger while sneaking, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC as long as she is trying to use Stealth. These bonuses rise to +2 when the specialist rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

1) Shouldn't this be in house rules?

2) I'm not opposed to the general concept of adding variety to the rogue.

3) I don't strongly agree with your thesis, in that I don't feel the existing rogue is very focused on traps. For all of 3.X, the rogue has been a true generalist IMO and very different from the 2e rogue (which was tier 5) in that you are a skill monkey with varied skills, a trap finder, and a damage dealer. Nothing really prevents a 3.X era rogue from being the face, backstabber, fence, pick pocket, and ninja all rolled into one.

4) To the extent that I agree with your argument, I would argue that the very narrowness of trap related abilities means that they can only be traded for abilities of equally circumstantial and marginal utility.

5) I don't necessarily find your specific implementations to be balanced, particularly in the light of #4. This problem runs at both the level of the logic of individual rules - the backstabber has a higher AC when surrounded than they do dodging a single foe - to the general level of trading something of situational utility for abilities you'll pretty much use all the time. The Face will quickly obtain Diplomancer status, something already all too easy to do if you try. In general, all of your abilities seem rather more useful than the thing they replace (Pickpocket seems to be an exception, as it is more situational than trap finding).

6) To a certain extent, I think that many of your concepts could be rewritten or rolled into a single feat, albeit one a bit weaker than your suggested class abilities. Then at first level the rogue could take a single bonus rogue feat, one of which could be Trap Finding. If the rogue wanted to diversify, they could then spend their precious few feats to take other feats later on - including Trap Finding. I'm sure you could find a feat that conveyed 'Scoundrel' if you tried.

There are so many Trap Sense variants at this point, that I think it's more appropriate to just present it as one class ability that you can choose variants of (like favored enemy or something). You get a +1/3 levels to some minor stuff; each rogue picks which minor stuff it is. I have a list of a dozen or so.

Which to me means that the only thing really worth an archetype or variant is finding something to replace trap sense. I think we've already got some okay options for that.

Ahnehnois said:

Which to me means that the only thing really worth an archetype or variant is finding something to replace trap sense. I think we've already got some okay options for that.

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Which was pretty much the intent. So where are your variants? This is not a side retort, I am genuinely wondering. I feel rogue specialization could be lie a cavalier order, with several set of abilities to choose from. If someone else's already done that, I'd be interested, but I've not seen it expressed this way.

Celebrim said:

4) Too the extent that I agree with your argument, I would argue that the very narrowness of trap related abilities means that they can only be traded for abilities of equally circumstantial and marginal utility.

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This is the rogue's great problem. It was written fro 3Es "back to the dungeon" paradigm. In a classic dungeon, about 1/5 of all threats encountered are traps, you are likely to encounter one or several traps each session. In Pathfinder as it is played, story has taken a much bigger role and correspondingly left much less room for traps. Abilities that were intended to be central and highly useful have become situational.

Thus this submission, which is intended to give other options that fit a more current idea of how the game is played. The main difference is that these abilities are now situations you as a player can initiate - they are proactive abilities. Unlike the original trap abilities which were strictly reactive - the rogue player could not use them unless the GM put a trap in the scenario. So to play a rogue as written and get to full value out of these abilities, you basically have to have a social contract that says an average of one trap per session - and that is not going to happen in my games and feel not in many other games either.

Starfox said:

Which was pretty much the intent. So where are your variants? This is not a side retort, I am genuinely wondering. I feel rogue specialization could be lie a cavalier order, with several set of abilities to choose from. If someone else's already done that, I'd be interested, but I've not seen it expressed this way.

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Well, the first one is this:

Rogue Sense (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a rogue’s survival instincts and specialized training grant him a +1 competence bonus to his saving throws, a dodge bonus to AC, or a competence bonus to other modifiers in certain situations. The exact circumstances where the bonus applies are different for each rogue. Some options are presented below. With every 3 additional class levels gained, the rogue gets another +1 bonus. He may choose the same bonus or a different bonus each time this ability is gained.
Astute: +1 to Sense Motive checks and saves against illusions.
Daring: +1 to Balance checks and saves against fear.
Dauntless: +1 to saves against death effects and transmutation effects (including polymorph and disintegrate).
Deft: +1 bonus to Sleight of Hand checks and Disable Device checks.
Guarded Mind: +1 to will saves against mind-affecting effects.
No Trace: +1 to Hide checks after not moving for at least 1 round, +1 to Disguise checks, and +1 to the DC to track the character using Survival.
Resourceful: +1 to Survival checks and to saves and checks made to resist the effects of heat, cold, hunger, thirst, and suffocation.
Sixth Sense: +1 bonus on initiative and a +1 insight bonus to AC during surprise rounds.
Slippery: +1 to saves against effects that impede movement, such as slow or web, and +1 to CMD against grapple checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape grapples.
Spell Sense: +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by spells and spell-like abilities.
Trap Sense: +1 to reflex saves against traps and +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
Vigorous: +1 to fortitude saves against poison and disease.

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For trap sense, I just made the rogue special ability progression start at level 1, and gave Trapfinding as one option.

Rogue Talent (Ex): A rogue gains a special ability. With every additional three class levels gained, he can choose another talent, until 10th level, when he gains additional options. See the list for available choices.
Fast Climbing: A rogue with this ability can climb half his speed as a move action without taking a -5 penalty on his Climb check.
Fast Stealth: This ability allows a rogue to move at full speed using Hide or Move Silently (or both) without penalty. If running or charging, he rogue takes only a -10 penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks.
Ledge Walker: This ability allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using Balance without penalty.
Quick Disable: It takes a rogue with this ability half the normal amount of time to disable a trap using Disable Device (minimum 1 round).
Rogue Crawl: While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue cannot take 5-foot steps while crawling.
Stand Up: A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.
Trapfinding: The rogue can use Search to find traps and Disable Device to disarm them without penalty, including magic traps.
Bonus Feat: In place of a special ability, the rogue may gain one of the following bonus feats: Acrobatic, Agile, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Investigator, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Skill Focus, Stealthy.

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For many of the classes I hew close to the PF versions, or start there and rewrite them slightly to reflect other rules concepts I use from TB or UA, but the rogue is one that I really substantially rewrote, for a variety of reasons. I can see your impetus to remove traps as obligatory for some class features; I think the archetypes aren't the most parsimonious way of accomplishing that.

Starfox said:

This is the rogue's great problem. It was written fro 3Es "back to the dungeon" paradigm. In a classic dungeon, about 1/5 of all threats encountered are traps, you are likely to encounter one or several traps each session. In Pathfinder as it is played, story has taken a much bigger role and correspondingly left much less room for traps. Abilities that were intended to be central and highly useful have become situational.

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I disagree. You are only quoting one of my several points, and in particular you are ignoring my 3rd point. The rogue is already a versatile and broad class capable of being useful in many situations. Granted you can be in a situation where all the foes are immune to sneak attack AND there are no traps, but IMO this is fairly rare even in a story based game. Secondly, 'story has taken a much bigger role' is a very subjective statement that implies judgment of how the game was 'usually played' in the past - something I consider highly fraught with difficulties as there was certainly no 'standard' way to play AD&D 1e or 2e or 3e for that matter either. You might could argue that in Pathfinder the 'adventure path' has become the standard way to play, but I'm not sure you'd convince me that AP's are 'story first' and leave no room for traps (though some, like 'Age of Worms' leave little room for rogues).

In any event, there is no reason to assume that finding traps was ever always useful and not situational. But improvements in the rogues skills and abilities in other situations already makes up for that to a large degree.

I know what you are intending to do, and as I noted in point #2 I do sympathize. But to put it in as pithy of a way as possible, what I'm seeing here is examples of more proposed solutions by way of power creep, a problem the 3.X rules set has been beset with ever since 3.5 came out. Every time someone sees a problem, they try to solve it through expanding abilities - greater power, greater flexibility, greater breadth. At some point I think that pattern creates more problems than it solves.

So to play a rogue as written and get to full value out of these abilities, you basically have to have a social contract that says an average of one trap per session - and that is not going to happen in my games and feel not in many other games either.

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Wait... what????

So if you play a cleric do you also need on average 1 undead per session?
Do you also need on average 1 evil foe per session if you have paladins?
Do you need to guarantee 1 encounter that can be solved by diplomacy per session if there is a bard in the party?

If traps come up, you are an asset - its that simple. When traps don't come up, you use your mobility skills, information collecting skills, social skills, use magic device, sneak attacks, and so forth to be an asset to the party. You might as well complain about the fact that you invested ranks in the climb skill but so far you haven't averaged 1 encounter per session where climb offers a significant advantage.

Now if none of the rogues skills are useful ever, then this points to failed encounter design but not merely because the rogue isn't being accommodated, but because the encounters are likely to be redundant and unimaginative period - endless 20'x30' rooms with no terrain containing hostile undead monsters that fight to the death aren't merely bad because the rogue doesn't get spotlight.

Celebrim said:

But to put it in as pithy of a way as possible, what I'm seeing here is examples of more proposed solutions by way of power creep, a problem the 3.X rules set has been beset with ever since 3.5 came out. Every time someone sees a problem, they try to solve it through expanding abilities - greater power, greater flexibility, greater breadth. At some point I think that pattern creates more problems than it solves.

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To a great extent, the ideas of choose-your-own class features and archetypes are supposed to prevent that. You have to give something up to get something. The number of options the class conveys can increase, but the number of abilities an individual character possesses remains the same.

Also, just to be realistic about it, if we were to assess the practical utility of all the classes, the rogue is closer to the bottom than the top. If we did boost it a little bit, it wouldn't be a bad thing.

[MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION]:

With regard to your rogue sense variant, my problem is first that it doesn't address the real problem with Trap Sense (narrow, as it applies to only a subset of traps) and secondly that its likely to lead to a bunch of finicky fiddly variation for its own sake. Tons of situational +1 modifiers is the bane of play. I'd far rather very slightly expand the range of things your rogue sense applied to. For example, in my game 'rogue sense' applies to traps, and also to AC versus touch attacks made on the rogue by spells and spell-alike abilities. For your variation, I'd probably simplify things by saying rogue sense applied to traps AND 1 additional area of your choice (my current rules being the equivalent of this with the choices Spell Sense and Trap Sense). Some of your choices though seem a bit too good... I think it is a 'no brainer' to choose between Dauntless, Guarded Mind and Sixth Sense, as they are clearly far more generally useful than the rest.

With regard to your rogue talent variations, I think that the reverse of the problem we've been discussing is generally true. Trap Finding is so hugely useful when it is useful, that all the variant talents pale in comparison. I'd pretty much always choose trap finding at 1st level, and then pick up the bonus feats at higher level to taste (though probably Stand Up would be a no brainer 2nd choice).

In other words, while I approve of your goals as well, most of your variation doesn't address the actual problems IMO, there is poor balance between the choices, and most of the choices amount to 'NPC only flavorings'. There is nothing wrong with NPC only flavorings - character building is for DMs too - but I think you end up with too many of them relative to the number of choices.

Celebrim said:

So if you play a cleric do you also need on average 1 undead per session?
Do you also need on average 1 evil foe per session if you have paladins?
Do you need to guarantee 1 encounter that can be solved by diplomacy per session if there is a bard in the party?

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This is why every adventure I've ever written or run involves at least one evil undead spike trap that really just wants to be loved.

His name is Jimmy, and once my players get past it, I can run whatever game I want.

More seriously, I would say there's some real gains to be made in not having an ability that isn't used at least 1/session. Though I'd just be tempted to redesign some of those trap-based abilities to apply to other kinds of "traps" that are not strictly mechanical (natural hazards, trap-like ambushing monsters like piercers, cursed items, enemy bluffs, hidden creatures, invisible critters, etc.) and fluff it like a general ability to recognize danger when they maybe see it.