Interesting Decisions vs Wish Fulfillment (from Pulsipher)

Hussar

Legend
I submit that difficulty is orthogonal to the concept of the two outlined styles of play. Difficulty isn't the issue. The issue is sandbox vs linear.

Contra is 100% wish fulfilling linear but very difficult. So long as you keep playing you will succeed. There are no interesting choices.
 

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Iosue

Legend
I submit that difficulty is orthogonal to the concept of the two outlined styles of play. Difficulty isn't the issue. The issue is sandbox vs linear.
I see the conversation has evolved since I conceived that post in my head and got written out. :)

Contra is 100% wish fulfilling linear but very difficult. So long as you keep playing you will succeed. There are no interesting choices.
Conceded for the moment, but the Contra example was not meant to refer to Pulsipher's design paradigm, but specifically to the fallacy "low mortality rate = low chance of death".
 

Hussar

Legend
I see the conversation has evolved since I conceived that post in my head and got written out. :)


Conceded for the moment, but the Contra example was not meant to refer to Pulsipher's design paradigm, but specifically to the fallacy "low mortality rate = low chance of death".

I completely disagree with your conclusion. If lethality can be mitigated by the players of the game to the point where it becomes extremely rare, then the game is not terribly lethal in the first place. IOW, if the characters are rarely dying, then there is a low chance of death in that game. Why there is a low chance is irrelevant. The fact that it is the players who can mitigate this to the point where the game is rarely lethal leads me to believe that the game is more about following Emerikol's lead than anything else.

But, yes, this is completely besides the point. Pulsiver is in no way discussing difficulty in his blog post at all. He's comparing sandbox to linear games, calling sandbox games like Sid Meier games Interesting Decision Games and linear games Wish Fulfillment games and pointing to the fact that the majority of top selling games fall into the latter category.

And we see this in D&D as well. Paizo has built an entire business around selling wish fulfilment (by this definition) modules to gamers. An adventure path is exactly the same as something like Mass Effect - linear with a cool storyline. Which rolls around to Emerikol's problems with his player. It sounds like the player is looking for a linear game where you know what's going on, whereas Emerikol is running a more sandbox game where the players are expected to drive the game.

So, no, this is just sandbox vs linear with a funny set of glasses. It has nothing to do with one being easy and the other being difficult.
 

Iosue

Legend
I completely disagree with your conclusion. If lethality can be mitigated by the players of the game to the point where it becomes extremely rare, then the game is not terribly lethal in the first place.

Does not follow. Cf. Player who can beat Contra w/o Konami code vs. Contra's inherent difficulty and Japan's low maternal mortality vs. childbirth's inherent lethality.

IOW, if the characters are rarely dying, then there is a low chance of death in that game. Why there is a low chance is irrelevant.

Why there is a low chance is, in Emerikol's game, the whole point. We can flip this around by using a different failure state other than death. For example, in games where people prefer playing more of a heroic fantasy, or where character goals have more primacy than mitigating player death, their goals are often achieved, I daresay at a rate greater than 50/50. That doesn't mean that characters will achieve their goals automatically without doing anything, but rather that through their actions they mitigate the chances of failure.

The fact that it is the players who can mitigate this to the point where the game is rarely lethal leads me to believe that the game is more about following Emerikol's lead than anything else.

It is about following Emerikol's lead. But that's neither here nor there. The same effect can be found in games that rely on rules as mediation instead of GM mediation. In 3e or 4e, for example, encounter difficulty can be mitigated by optimized character builds and/or tactical combinations.

But, yes, this is completely besides the point. Pulsiver is in no way discussing difficulty in his blog post at all. He's comparing sandbox to linear games, calling sandbox games like Sid Meier games Interesting Decision Games and linear games Wish Fulfillment games and pointing to the fact that the majority of top selling games fall into the latter category.

I don't quite see it that way. "Linear vs open world" is actually mentioned as a separate way to look at design. He refers to "wish fulfillment" as "having an experience". The experience doesn't have to be linear, it merely has to be foregrounded to a greater degree than choices. In his paradigm, card games fall under "interesting choices" (and provide poor "experience"), yet game play is quite linear. Specifically, he calls out D&D and RPGs as "bridging the gap". That's because you can have interesting choices and "an experience", regardless of whether you're playing a railroad or a sandbox.

Which rolls around to Emerikol's problems with his player. It sounds like the player is looking for a linear game where you know what's going on, whereas Emerikol is running a more sandbox game where the players are expected to drive the game.

I don't quite see how you come to that conclusion. Emerikol says (my emphasis),
The player I ran into basically said that he felt my game was too challenging. I kept the group too stressed out fighting for their survival. He enjoys a game that while still having combats and so forth is not one that worries him especially. The fun for him is using cool powers to do cool things.

Whereas, other players want to fight and claw their way to every goal. The fighting and clawing though is the real goal.
The artificial reward goal is just symbolic of the completion of the journey.

It sounds to me that the player was seeking a different experience (Big Damn Heroes) from the rest of the group (Fantasy F'ing Vietnam) and/or sought different interesting decisions than the one Emerikol's game offered. That's entirely unrelated to sandbox vs. linear. I will say at the same time, though, that I don't necessarily agree with Emerikol that the problem was that his game offered interesting decisions and his player wanted wish fulfillment.
 

dd.stevenson

Super KY
Strategic and tactical focus.
Fair enough--though I don't believe these terms are nearly as catchy (and therefore not as internet-ready) as CaS and CaW. I would agree that they're more accurate, and probably less likely to get used as cudgels in an internet fight.

The original post was trying to figure something out out loud. It was interesting, worth reading, and reaching to something useful. The way CaW/CaS has been used since (right down to I think someone having a sig reading "I like Combat as War") has been not particularly well disguised edition warring.
To kick the tires a little bit, if the sig in question read: "I LIKE STRATEGIC FOCUS!!!" would that not be edition warring in your eyes?
 

Fair enough--though I don't believe these terms are nearly as catchy (and therefore not as internet-ready) as CaS and CaW. I would agree that they're more accurate, and probably less likely to get used as cudgels in an internet fight.

To kick the tires a little bit, if the sig in question read: "I LIKE STRATEGIC FOCUS!!!" would that not be edition warring in your eyes?

There's no implied "You namby pamby pantywaist kids are only playing a sport while we real men are going to War!" Strategic and tactical focus are like other in a way war and sport aren't.
 

There's no implied "You namby pamby pantywaist kids are only playing a sport while we real men are going to War!" Strategic and tactical focus are like other in a way war and sport aren't.

The thing is, if you leave out the inferred condescension, calling it "sport" - to my mind - very accurately describes the concept of deliberately creating rules and restrictions for balanced play. The difference between learning to kill with a sword, and learning to compete in fencing tournaments. I don't feel that "strategic vs. tactical" communicates the same idea.

In a sense, a massive wargame of moving armies around a map (Axis & Allies?) is just as "sport" in this context as fencing.
 


The thing is, if you leave out the inferred condescension, calling it "sport" - to my mind - very accurately describes the concept of deliberately creating rules and restrictions for balanced play. The difference between learning to kill with a sword, and learning to compete in fencing tournaments. I don't feel that "strategic vs. tactical" communicates the same idea.

In a sense, a massive wargame of moving armies around a map (Axis & Allies?) is just as "sport" in this context as fencing.

The thing is that sport is accurate. War isn't. So-called Combat as War is a cross between a big game safari and an obstacle course. With a little shooting back - but there's shooting back in CaS.
 

The thing is that sport is accurate. War isn't. So-called Combat as War is a cross between a big game safari and an obstacle course. With a little shooting back - but there's shooting back in CaS.

I'm having trouble coming up with a simple metaphor to argue with this. Best I've got is - the intent of CaW would be more akin to a big game safari/obstacle course where the hunters can decide that burning down the jungle might be the best option.
 

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