D&D 5E Legends and Lore July 28: Keeping it Classy

Sacrosanct

Legend
Using that logic you only need 5 classes as you can do every with feats, backgrounds, and the fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, and warlock classes.

.

This is....really not true at all. What feats replicate wildshape? monk's unarmed attack flurries? barbarian's rage? the list goes on. Those types of abilities are much more complex than any feat, and therefore couldn't be captured using the feat design structure. Ergo: unique classes/subclasses
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
This is....really not true at all. What feats replicate wildshape? monk's unarmed attack flurries? barbarian's rage? the list goes on. Those types of abilities are much more complex than any feat, and therefore couldn't be captured using the feat design structure. Ergo: unique classes/subclasses


They could. There are already unarmed strike and power attack like feats. With 5e' s bigger feats, it would not be hard to write if you roll up a sleeve. Check you might be able to snatch class features whole and feat them by attaching a table to them. I could translate every 3e skill, feat, and domain into a 5e subclass if I was motivated (thank Pelor I'm lazy).

We choose to which archetypes are made into classes, which one are subclasses, which are made into feats, and which are just skill checks that are adjudicated.

I just disagree with the choices made for the PHB.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
My issue is that both 3e and 4e had some kind of mechanical process for many of these aspects of the various iconic versions of rogues in the PHB.

It's understandable, but there's a solid reason 5e DOESN'T have that kind of procedural detail: bigger, more meaningful decisions are smoother in play. Rather than being "the guy who can travel an additional 5 ft. when pole vaulting," the rogue is "the guy who can achieve feats of acrobatics beyond others" (thanks to expertise), which may include extra pole vaulting feet among other things (I imagine the DMG rules for setting DC's will be good at revealing the intended in-play distinction between expertise'd and non-expertise'd folks, as there's 2-6 points of difference between the two). Players and DMs are encouraged in most places to make bigger choices than if one specific use of cunning action can grant another moment of combat advantage (that is now redundant with the fact that someone else is in melee with the enemy anyway).

If more fine granularity is desirable for you, it might be more fun to stick with 3e/PF/4e, as those lineages definitely care about those details.

So 5e should have followed the example of past editions in the 5e way. Unless the 5e way is "ask the DM for a house rule and refluff".

There's a few good reasons why 5e cut ties with the particular detail of the two previous editions (one of them that springs to my mind is that this detail encourages "pixel bitching" over fiddly bits). The "5e way" is still being felt out, but it seems to sit well above dictating very specific skill results, encouraging instead a use of skills that is more interpretive than definitive, which in turn allows for more individual variation to emerge.

Part of what that means is that DMs take a more active role as judges than in 3e or 4e (where the detailed rules often served that function). Which in turn means that the social aspect of the game -- talking to your DM, communicating about intent, understanding each other -- is highlighted.

I just find the fact one of the most variable classes of the last two editions has only 3 subclasses and one is "cast wizard spells". Can't even feint or sly flourish without DM adjudication anymore whereas we get green knights and trickery clerics.

Again, I think it's key to think about the results you want more so than the specific processes. What did adding your CHA mod to damage via Sly Flourish functionally do in play that made it fun, and can you find that fun in 5e even though it doesn't use that process?

It might be that the process itself was part of the fun in which case 5e's simplification of that process is not gonna be up your alley, I think.

It might be, for instance, that the functional element of Sly Flourish was that it made your CHA-focused rogue a competent melee combatant, thus encouraging you to have a high CHA and removing the pressing need for being a DEX-exclusive demigod, which played to the idea of a charming, deceitful character.

I think 5e does that latter thing. Bounded accuracy means that you don't need a DEX of 20 to be a competent melee combatant, thus allowing you to pump up CHA and playing to the idea of a charming, deceitful character. It does that without having to add CHA to your damage.

Feinting might be seen in a similar light. If the functional element of it was to give the rogue more options to get Sneak Attack off, 5e can do that without worrying about embedding a rule in some corner of the skill system.

So I think the 5e rogue maintains and even expands upon (thanks, bounded accuracy!) the variability of the 3e/4e rogue, without getting buried in minutiae. O'course, one man's minutiae is another man's treasured mechanical process, so I'm not here to argue that it's better. ;) Just that if what you're interested in is the result, rather than the process, you can still likely achieve that.

I say this as a person with a lot of experience doing this in 4e, though, so maybe I've got a high threshold for it. One of my currently played characters says genasi swarm druid on the tin, but is played as a druid who turns into rainfall. The result of "druid who turns into rainfall" trumps the process of building her as a genasi swarm druid with an encounter power that is a close burst 1 that provides concealment. The important thing to me is how that power supports the story I tell, not the power itself.

I mean, this is a lot like folks who, with the advent of 4e, said they couldn't play an archery-based fighter. If you wanted the process of a fighter with a bow, no, you couldn't do that. But if you wanted the effect of a skilled archer, you could totally do that (it was called "ranger," and there's some good role-driven reasons they didn't stick it in the fighter class). Now with the advent of 5e, you can't play a rogue who adds CHA to attack rolls, but you can still get the effect of a charismatic rogue because that story trumps the specific mechanics used to embody it in 4e.
 

They could. There are already unarmed strike and power attack like feats. With 5e' s bigger feats, it would not be hard to write if you roll up a sleeve. Check you might be able to snatch class features whole and feat them by attaching a table to them. I could translate every 3e skill, feat, and domain into a 5e subclass if I was motivated (thank Pelor I'm lazy).

We choose to which archetypes are made into classes, which one are subclasses, which are made into feats, and which are just skill checks that are adjudicated.

I just disagree with the choices made for the PHB.

Which is fair enough - I think we all understand that every conceivable character concept can't fit in the PHB, and that this PHB has more customization content than any previous PHB. What it comes down to is whether or not the options are a given individual's preferred choices or not.

For my part, I'm happy enough with the list, even though a few of the ones I'd have liked to have seen aren't there (Druid with an Animal Companion, anybody?). I do think that criticizing the lack of a Thief-Acrobat or Thug subclass on the basis of "previous editions have supported it" is a little hollow, though; as other have argued, in 5E, a Thief-Acrobat is just a Thief who has Expertise in Acrobatics, and the blurring line between DEX Fighter and STR Rogue makes Thug a bit redundant.

We can quibble over whether or not the sub-classes that were chosen are going to stand the test of time, but what makes "Thug" innately more worth of inclusion than "Arcane Trickster", given that we all accept page count is at a premium and not everything we'd like to see is going to make the final cut?
 

Remathilis

Legend
Can a rogue with proficiency in persuasion roll Charisma to speak Giant because he know Dwarven and Giant and Dwarven are similar?

Not sure why that would be a rogue thing: anyone with linguistic background should be able to. This is probably a feat.

Can a rogue with proficiency in Deception to feint an attack for advantage with his Cunning action?

Well, considering "feint" isn't an action in 5e (the only reference to it is in the "help" action. Oh, and the leaked Battlemaster I guess) I don't see how that connects. Maybe a future rogue might give "help" as an action to Cunning Action, but its not going to be the free "Sneak attack every round" maneuver you are probably pushing here for.

Can a rogue with proficiency in intimidation demoralize a foe with a vicious glare to get advantage on future Charisma checks?

That sounds like a DM call on a Intimidate Check rather than a hard-code rule. I'd rather see things like this be limited; at a certain point you start hard-coding enough stuff and you end up with the Helpless Prisoner feat.

Can a rogue with proficiency in acrobatics add his dexterity score to is pole vaulting distance?

Rogue/Thief: Second Story Work: "In addition, when you make a running jump, the distance you cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Dexterity modifier". Already there.

Can a rogue with proficiency in Balance run on a tightrope without making checks?

Rogue: Reliable Talent.

Can any rogue sneak attack with a longsword? I mean why even give proficiency?

Ok, you got me. They have rapier though, and that is equal in all areas AND SA-ready.
 

FadedC

First Post
I remember the same discussions being had around the 3e rogue, who relied on feats and multi-classing for his customization much more than the 5e rogue. You didn't have subclasses, you just had a basic rogue class with a small number of abilities. I don't remember it providing any mechanical support for different rogue archetypes beyond what you had to create for yourself by piecing things together.

4e baked some of that customization in subclasses of the character classes themselves and then took out a lot of the multi-classing options. However there were only 2 rogue subclasses in the PHB, both of which were dex based. It was just a question of whether you wanted to get some minor benefits from your charisma stat or from your strength stat. Anything else you had to do with skill and feat selection.

I don't really think rogue archetype creation is that different in 5e. It seems kind of like a combination of 3e feat and multi-class customization and the 4e subclass customization.
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
Well, considering "feint" isn't an action in 5e (the only reference to it is in the "help" action. Oh, and the leaked Battlemaster I guess) I don't see how that connects. Maybe a future rogue might give "help" as an action to Cunning Action, but its not going to be the free "Sneak attack every round" maneuver you are probably pushing here for.
Cunning Action already gives you a free Sneak Attack every round if you make the Stealth check. Changing it to a Deception check doesn't seem too broken. You could argue it makes the Rogue too flexible, but for an individual character, I'd allow it.
 


occam

Adventurer
My issue is that both 3e and 4e had some kind of mechanical process for many of these aspects of the various iconic versions of rogues in the PHB.

So 5e should have followed the example of past editions in the 5e way. Unless the 5e way is "ask the DM for a house rule and refluff".

I just find the fact one of the most variable classes of the last two editions has only 3 subclasses and one is "cast wizard spells". Can't even feint or sly flourish without DM adjudication anymore whereas we get green knights and trickery clerics.

How many rogue "subclasses" did the 4e Player's Handbook contain? Two. How many did the 3e/3.5e PHB contain? Well, there really weren't any, so… one? And you're disappointed that the 5e PHB contains three rogue subclasses, the combined total of the previous two editions?

There's only so much room in one book, and they've appeared to do a bang-up job stuffing this Player's Handbook with options. But the game doesn't end there.
 

ccooke

Adventurer
That's problematic, though, Mouse, because new subclasses can only be used by new PCs.

It's the same as the background issue, only worse. With a background, it's cool, but it's a choice you make once, and cannot ever make again. It's the same (AFAIK!) with sub-classes, but at least they keep on giving you stuff as you go on.

Whereas Feats and potentially PrCs or similar can be applied to existing characters - I'm pretty sure this is why books which included such things were such big sellers in the 3.XE era, whereas books which focused on new races or base classes tended to be a bit less successful (relative to investment). Entirely my perception, of course!

So if they're the "primary" player-focused mechanical thing, then I think that might be an issue. Though perhaps we'll all just keep creating new PCs, who knows?

Yes, I'm reaching back into the dim and distant past of this thread. But then, it's still alive and I was on holiday when the above was posted :)

I just wanted to make a point that Prestige Classes and new 5e Subclasses are about equal in their applicability to existing characters, and while new Backgrounds are less so, they still provide things that an existing character can obtain. Let's compare...

Prestige Classes have a set of pre-requisites - usually some mix of class features, skill ranks and feats you must have in order to take the PrC. If you have an existing character and read about a new PrC that perfectly fits your ideal for your character, then you're going to fall into one of a few camps:

If you haven't taken a Prestige Class yet:
1) You can meet the prerequisites in 0-2 levels. Congratulations, the PrC is useful to you right now.
2) You can't meet the prerequisites for at least 4-5 levels. You might need to gain three more feats, or several levels worth of skill points, or you would need 2nd level spells in a different class. This PrC is probably useless to you right now, and it may be too late in your campaign to be able to take it.

If you already have a Prestige Class, you have all of the above with the additional issues that the two PrCs may not synergise well at all, or that by taking on another PrC you won't gain enough levels to get to the iconic features of the first PrCs you took.

In 5e, a subclass is at least as likely to be useful. In that case, the only prerequisite is if you already have a subclass in the relevant class and if you have the multiclass prerequisites to meet it. Because of the way that 5e multiclassing works, taking on a new class doesn't make your character weaker (there's no loss of accuracy, nor skill use, nor spell power. There are trade-offs, but they're very much a give-and-take issue (As an aside, I really need to roll up a character that takes one level of each class up to level 12, just to see what it looks like. Have to wait for the PHB for that, though)).

Effectively, I'd say that you have at least as much chance of being able to use a new subclass in 5e as you would a PrC in 3e.

As to backgrounds, they provide proficiencies, languages and a trait. You can already customise your background to get any skill, tool or language combination you want, so new backgrounds won't make much difference on that score. If they provide a really interesting thematic trait, well, that's explicitly something that can be gained in play as a reward from the GM or as a downtime option.

(I am definitely planning to use traits as a reward. Knighthood, for instance, or the Folk Hero's Rustic Hospitality if you've just saved a lot of lives in a city or town)
 

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