The double standard for magical and mundane abilities

Tony Vargas said:

You think? Levels are harder to draw with non-casters, since 'best swordsman in the world' means a very different thing in a world where everyone else is 2ne level than one with more of a range, for instance. They did tangle with some serious stuff, though, up to and including nominal deities.

In any case, he's the archetypal rogue (you can point to a lot of the early Thief oddities, like the affinity for languages, minor use of magic (reading scrolls) and preference for the sling, as Mouser-inspired), whatever level you might think is appropriate, while Batman isn't even in the same genre.

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Having read the first two books of the series, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser have a low-level feeling to me. They're competent swordsmen and thieves, but not larger than life like, say, Conan. Of course it's subjective, and I imagine I might think differently if I'd read the later books. Mind you, the Mouser wouldn't be a single-classed rogue or thief in any existing edition of D&D, anyway. He needs some personal combat expertise, which the class has never really had. Well, I suppose 4th edition could pull it off, since there are feats that can reduce the reliance of a rogue on flanking for gaining combat advantage.

As far as Batman goes, I don't think it's fair to dismiss an example just because of its genre. D&D has always drawn inspiration from many different sources.

Morty said:

Mind you, the Mouser wouldn't be a single-classed rogue or thief in any existing edition of D&D, anyway. He needs some personal combat expertise, which the class has never really had.

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Exactly he's an Agility Fighter with good INT and CHA, a miniscule amount of Arcane Lore, decent lockpicking and Pickpocketing.

Well, I suppose 4th edition could pull it off, since there are feats that can reduce the reliance of a rogue on flanking for gaining combat advantage.

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One of the things I liked about 4e is the Grey Mouser could finally be built (in D&D anyway) as a starting character concept and didn't need multiclassing or rules breaking.

evileeyore said:

One of the things I liked about 4e is the Grey Mouser could finally be built (in D&D anyway) as a starting character concept and didn't need multiclassing or rules breaking.

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Eventually (Rogue or even Rogue(Thief) with Wizard's Apprentice Theme). But, the original thief /was/ modeling him: sling instead of bow, light armor, thief skills, high DEX, read languages/scroll use, guilds. That it didn't do so /well/ by modern standards notwithstanding. The Thief did at least as good a job modeling Grey Mouser as the Fighter did Conan or the Ranger did Aragorn or the Wizard did Merlin. It's not like other 70s RPGs did any better (OK, maybe RQ did some of those better - but not all of them).

Tony Vargas said:

Eventually (Rogue or even Rogue(Thief) with Wizard's Apprentice Theme). But, the original thief /was/ modeling him: sling instead of bow, light armor, thief skills, high DEX, read languages/scroll use, guilds. That it didn't do so /well/ by modern standards notwithstanding. The Thief did at least as good a job modeling Grey Mouser as the Fighter did Conan or the Ranger did Aragorn or the Wizard did Merlin. It's not like other 70s RPGs did any better (OK, maybe RQ did some of those better - but not all of them).

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I agree that original Thief was about close as D&D has really ever gotten.

To me Mouser does not have "backstab", but then I also never liked the ability.

Just a quick note about my post upthread regarding (a) the lack of process-simulation of spellcasters in their actual spellcraft in D&D and (b) folks indifference about it who are simultaneously intent on granular process-simulation of fightercraft and roguecraft (because versimulitude).

I've GMed quite a bit of Dungeon World. Most of that GMing has had a Fighter character alongside a Wizard character. In Dungeon World, the basic resolution scheme for actions (moves) is:

Roll 2d6 + (bounded) modifier.

* on a 10 + you do what you set out to do
* on a 7-9 you have success with complications
* on a 6- you mark XP and something not-so-good happens

The math of the system puts intentionally puts most outcomes in 7-9 as it generates the most compelling and dynamic play. Every time a Wizard casts a spell...guess what?

[h=3]Cast a Spell (Int)[/h] When you release a spell you’ve prepared, roll+Int.
✴ On a 10+, the spell is successfully cast and you do not forget the spell—you may cast it again later.
✴ On a 7-9, the spell is cast, but choose one:

• You draw unwelcome attention or put yourself in a spot. The GM will tell you how.
• The spell disturbs the fabric of reality as it is cast—take -1 ongoing to cast a spell until the next time you Prepare Spells.
• After it is cast, the spell is forgotten. You cannot cast the spell again until you prepare spells.

In Dungeon World:

1) The Fighter is extremely powerful and has some extremely awesome fiat/trump card abilities (such as the ability to intuit outcomes, who lives or dies, on the battlefield before its been settled...or divine information from the psychic resonance or spirits of those who have held/died by his signature weapon).

2) The Fighter has + 2 armor base, d10 + Con HP and d10 damage. The Wizard has 0 armor base, and d4 in both HP and damage.

3) The Wizard gets less (significantly so when considering some editions) spells than any Wizard in D&D, sans 4e.

4) The Wizard's spells are less powerful than in in D&D.

5) The Wizard must interface with the basic action resolution mechanics every time they cast a spell (test their spellcraft).

All of these things persist in DW. Regardless of that, Wizards are every part as powerful as Fighters. What does that say about D&D and the mainstream (?) acceptance of, and sometimes absurd lengths gone in defense of, its paradigm?

It says the thread topic is on the money.

evileeyore said:

Exactly he's an Agility Fighter with good INT and CHA, a miniscule amount of Arcane Lore, decent lockpicking and Pickpocketing.

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Eh, it could go either way. The Fighter/Rogue division is pretty artificial when it comes down to it. But I'd imagine the Mouser more like primarily a thief/rogue/however we call it who also knows how to handle himself in a scrap - Fafhrd would be a fighter who is also a resourceful thief when he needs to be.