D&D 5E Beastmaster's animal companion: can it survive for 2 rounds?

You know, I've realized I may be overcomplicating this.

Obviously, I have no access to Wizards' research/playtest results. So they may well know something I don't about this. But let's break it down.

An ACo attack is roughly equivalent to a single weapon attack. It has more versatility, but it's also got limitations. I think it's fair to say that, overall and for the most part, they're equivalent.

I think it's actually okay that, for levels 3 and 4, it takes the ranger's action to command the ACo. You're still training/learning to work with the critter. So let's say that the beastmaster gets an ability at 5th level that says "You can now choose to command your ACo as a bonus action, rather than your normal action."

So, what, if anything, does that break?

* It would allow the ranger to "make an attack" when he's dashing, dodging, or disengaging. But we already have the rogue's cunning action as a precedent that doing so isn't game-breaking in and of itself, as long as you balance/account for it. So, since the beastmaster doesn't get the hunter's attack and damage and defensive options, I'm prepared to say it's okay for him--via his beast--to get what amounts to a less-useful version of cunning action.

* It would allow the ranger to "make an attack" when spellcasting. Well, we have the eldritch knight as precedent for allowing a single attack while also casting. True, the ek can only do that with cantrips until really high level, but the ek also has lots of combat spells. Most of the ranger's spells aren't damage-dealers. Most of the time, being able to command the ACo to attack while also casting a spell isn't going to provide all that much of a benefit. On the rare occasion it does, it's not so much of one that we can't call it a feature of the subclass and let it go. (It may be more an issue with multiclass casters, but I think trading at least three caster levels for the equivalent of a single weapon attack is probably a wash at best.)

* It would allow the ranger to make one more attack per turn than he should; three rather than two. We could handle that via my TWF-analogue, above, but I think there's a simpler and better way.

Don't give the beastmaster the extra attack feature. Training to work with the companion has taken the place of the combat training that would've sped up his attacks.

Make extra attack a 5th-level feature of the hunter subclass, when the beastmaster switches over to bonus actions. You now have both rangers making the same number of attacks: two with weapons for the hunter, one with weapon and one with beast for the beastmaster.

Hunter gets volley or whirlwind; beastmaster gets bestial fury.

What about 7th level? Obviously the current beastmaster ability has to be replaced if it's already a bonus action to command it. Well, that's when the hunter starts getting extra damage. So how about, "Due to extensive training, the ACo has learned how to maximize its effectiveness; all its attacks gain a bonus to damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1)."

I've spent a lot of word count here explaining my reasoning, but it's actually amazingly simple to execute.

At 3rd level, the companion works as written.

At 5th, it now only requires a bonus action to command--even to attack--but the ranger doesn't get a second attack of his own. (If we want to throw the TWF ranger a bone, we can say "If you are fighting with two weapons, you can make your off-hand attack as part of the same bonus action you use to command the ACo.)

At 7th level, the beast's attacks add your Wis modifier to damage.

Is he quite a match for the hunter in terms of damage dealt? No, but he's close, and he's more versatile, since he can attack while dashing or casting or whatnot.

Again, I haven't run any numbers. Also, it's 4 am. So by all means, if there are flaws here, point them out. This is an off-the-top-of-my-head work-in-progress at best. ;)
 
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Oh, we do need to make it harder to lose the ACo, since so much of the beastmaster's combat effectiveness is tied up in it. I think that's easy enough to accomplish by having the ACo use PC rules for 0 hp and dying. That should give the ranger time to get to it and cast a cure or otherwise treat it. (It wouldn't be hard to come up with a "cure animal companion" spell that beastmasters learn automatically, for that matter.)

Maybe also reduce the time to bond with a new companion to one hour, rather than eight. Not realistic, but ranger's already have access to speak with animals, so hardly unprecedented.

I also like the idea of "If an attack would reduce your ACo to 0 hit points, you can spend your reaction to take that damage yourself, rather than your ACo." It implies a much more magical bond, so I know that won't appeal to some, but I think it's at least worth considering.
 
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jadrax

Adventurer
You see I think the whole baseline premise of 'a Beast Master Ranger with an animal companion should be equivalent to any other character' is fundamentally flawed. A Beast Master Ranger should be the equivalent of any other character that has a henchman, or a horse, or whatever.

A mounted Paladin should not be significantly better than a Beast Master Ranger just because his steed is not a class feature.


I am actually wondering if you have the animal act as normal, and then have the Ranger stuff add additional Actions on top of that, it would be comparable to a Fighter Battle Master with a Henchman.
 

Gargoyle

Adventurer
You see I think the whole baseline premise of 'a Beast Master Ranger with an animal companion should be equivalent to any other character' is fundamentally flawed. A Beast Master Ranger should be the equivalent of any other character that has a henchman, or a horse, or whatever.

A mounted Paladin should not be significantly better than a Beast Master Ranger just because his steed is not a class feature.


I am actually wondering if you have the animal act as normal, and then have the Ranger stuff add additional Actions on top of that, it would be comparable to a Fighter Battle Master with a Henchman.

Except that a henchman typically gets 1/2 share of XP, per earlier edition rules, not something you'd expect of a class feature.

I don't think giving the animal companion their own actions is the solution; the martial powers version of the Beast master in 4e worked fine using the same mechanic of having the ranger use their actions. I think making them an extension of the ranger is fine, but that they need to be harder to kill and possibly scale better.
 

jadrax

Adventurer
Except that a henchman typically gets 1/2 share of XP, per earlier edition rules, not something you'd expect of a class feature.

A war horse did not, but otherwise, yes that is a fair point.

It will actually be interesting to see what rules the DMG has for Henchmen: If they end up costing XP or actually working like Animal Companions it would change a lot of assumptions.

I don't think giving the animal companion their own actions is the solution; the martial powers version of the Beast master in 4e worked fine using the same mechanic of having the ranger use their actions. I think making them an extension of the ranger is fine, but that they need to be harder to kill and possibly scale better.

Yes, but 4e was built on a different action economy. The 2nd level Paladin spell Find Steed worked the same way as an Animal Companion there would not be an issue. But it doesn't. And as [MENTION=32417]MikeMearls[/MENTION] said, 'Consistency between rules for mounts and rules for companions would make sense.'
 
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Evenglare

Adventurer
People trying to follow the rules of the game..? Should we not trust anything the book says? Wizard spell slots per day are just suggestions, I should query my DM before every session whether a spell uses a slot, just because the game says it does? Perhaps I don't stop acting at 0hp, either, I should start to argue the point every time it comes up?

Whew, sure is a slippery slope here. Are you the guy thats going to adjudicate that the companion would just sit there and die because he has no idea what to do? I think you need to use logic, if something doesn't make sense to you then YES you shouldn't listen to the book. We are humans, we can have ideas of our own. Nothing is perfect, and if you think that something is you have bigger problems. If something doesn't make sense to you change it! Please use your brain! Now of course, your comeback is that if you pay money you should be getting almost flawless rules. If that's the case and you think these rules are too flawed show them with your money, and ask for a refund and DONT buy any more books! Otherwise until then use your own ideas for the parts of the game you think is wrong, then fill out the survey when it comes out. I really don't see how this is such a difficult concept.
 

Gargoyle

Adventurer
A war horse did not, but otherwise, yes that is a fair point.

It will actually be interesting to see what rules the DMG has for Henchmen: If they end up costing XP or actually working like Animal Companions it would change a lot of assumptions.



Yes, but 4e was built on a different action economy. The 2nd level Paladin spell Find Steed worked the same way as an Animal Companion there would not be an issue. But it doesn't. And as [MENTION=32417]MikeMearls[/MENTION] said, 'Consistency between rules for mounts and rules for companions would make sense.'

I can read that both ways...for instance you could interpret his comment as that the mounts should be treated more like the animal companions, so that they cannot act independently while being ridden, just as a ranger's animal companion cannot act independently while the ranger is present and conscious. But I agree with your implication, I don't think that was what he meant. He probably means that the ranger can let his animal companion act independently at any time, giving it to the DM to control temporarily, having it's own initiative, and it's own actions like a PC.

If they allow for rangers to let their animal companions to act independently using the same rules as mounts, it's an extra burden on the DM, but I'd be ok with that for the sake of consistency and verisimilitude, and I might even just do that as a house rule for those reasons, and also just to make the player happier, cause I'm cool like that.
 

Juriel

First Post
Whew, sure is a slippery slope here. Are you the guy thats going to adjudicate that the companion would just sit there and die because he has no idea what to do?

If we are playing by the rules as set out in the book, where it clearly says 'the animal does nothing without you holding its hand'. I'm fine with house rules, but that is what a divergence from that would be. It's not even an unclear, ambiguous thing that could be interpreted different ways, it's a literal rule in the book.

I think you need to use logic, if something doesn't make sense to you then YES you shouldn't listen to the book... I really don't see how this is such a difficult concept.

Just slightly condescending there. A book with bad rules should not be excused with 'well, I can fix it! just houserule it! every table doing it differently, whee!'
 

Make extra attack a 5th-level feature of the hunter subclass, when the beastmaster switches over to bonus actions. You now have both rangers making the same number of attacks: two with weapons for the hunter, one with weapon and one with beast for the beastmaster.

I'm with you up until this point -- for combat a beast is really just another attack. It's a spiritual weapon with hit points and AC; it's a two-weapon fighting combat style (only worse, since you get the extra attack from TWF a level earlier in your progression and it doesn't require an action sacrifice). It's closest to spiritual weapon or a longbow attack in fact, since it can work at range and shift targets and the average attack is about the same in terms of damage (~1d8 base). For that reason, the beastmaster *shouldn't* have to sacrifice the additional attack other combat approaches get.

What we should probably be comparing is equivalent attacks. If you get an extra attack, it's an extra attack. If you get +1d6 or +1d8 damage to an existing attack, it's more or less the equivalent of getting an additional attack (not exactly the same because of the change in hit probability, but balanced as a more-or-less equivalent tradeoff). +4-5 points of damage to an attack is also the rough equivalent of an additional attack (comparing the average to a damage roll).

If the beast's attack becomes a bonus action at 5th, the beastmaster can keep the extra attack and it remains balanced. As you've proposed it, a TWF hunter gets 3 attacks at 5th due to the TWF bonus action, but the beastmaster only gets two with the same number of actions (the kludge you suggest below to allow a TWF an off-hand attack with the bonus action as well breaks for two reasons: it only works for TWF, penalizing other combat styles, and it's now effectively two bonus actions). As I propose it, at 5th a TWF ranger gets 3 attacks, and a beastmaster ranger gets 3 attacks (regardless of fighting style), each using the same bonus action. If the beastmaster is using the TWF fighting style, he can use only one bonus action -- either a beast attack or off-hand attack -- so he keeps three attacks either way.

Your suggestion reduces the beastmaster's effectiveness compared to alternatives, rather than restoring balance. Frankly, given that TWF Fighting Style provides a full second attack at 2d level, waiting to give the beast's attack via a bonus action at 5th is probably a bit unfair; providing it at 3rd with the Ranger Archetype isn't unbalanced.

What about 7th level? Obviously the current beastmaster ability has to be replaced if it's already a bonus action to command it. Well, that's when the hunter starts getting extra damage. So how about, "Due to extensive training, the ACo has learned how to maximize its effectiveness; all its attacks gain a bonus to damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1)."

That's one option but it's pretty weak. Again compare the beast attack to other options using a bonus action like the TWF off-hand attack (up to 1d6+5, avg 8.5) or the Hunter's Quarry spell (+1d6, avg 3.5) -- even with a 16 WIS the ranger is still below the average of those options. I'm a fan (as suggested on a prior page) of giving the ranger and beast advantage on their attacks for attacking the same target. It accomplishes a similar result of giving more damage, but in a different way -- by increasing probability of hit rather than just adding damage outright.

Which brings us to 11th level. I say retain the beast's extra attack; it restores some damage balance against other options. At that level, the paladin is doing two attacks with +1d8 each from Improved Divine Smite each in addition to +4d8 to three attacks a day (plus 3 at +3d8 and four at +2d8) from Divine Smite [Base 4 up to 8 attack equivalents per turn]. The rogue is doing +6d6 per sneak attack [7 to 8 attack equivalents per turn, depending on TWF or not]. The fighter has three base attacks with a potential fourth equivalent depending on fighting style (TWF) or archetype (Battle Master superiority dice) [4+ attack equivalents per turn; neglects Action Surge since that's essentially an encounter ability]. The cleric's spiritual weapon can do +3d8 at this level as a bonus attack [That's 4 attack equivalents adding the cleric's base attack action -- or Tempus forbid the cleric's a war priest and gets a bonus attack all the time.]. The Hunter Ranger is getting Volley or Whirlwind attack under many conditions, in addition to the +1d8 per turn he's likely been carrying around since 3rd level for Colossus Slayer (if TWF, he's had four attack equivalents since 5th level!). Four 1d8-base attack equivalents for the beastmaster ranger at this level seems fair.
 
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