D&D 5E Bardic Lore: A Basic College of Lore Bard Guide

Zardnaar said:

Don't get hit would be my advice. Our lore bard tends to stay at the back of things and at lower levels AC 15 seems to be about as good as the Rogue for example.

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Yeah I don't get this "don't get hit" thing. What would stop you getting hit? Lots of PCs are already using their reactions for something else, and you only get one reaction, and once the reaction is used any number of creatures can freely move right past people in the front ranks. The rogue can hide as a bonus action at least, but the bard? Probably just right out in the open standing there, with only someone else's single reaction (if that) between them and doom. And then there are area attacks, ranged attacks, trap attacks, attacks from behind, etc.. You're going to get hit, if you have the lowest AC in the game and you're dangerous.

At higher levels AC won't matter to much

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Yeah I am not buying that for a moment.

Let's say you're level 10. Typical Level 10 monster, a Death Slaad (CR 10). Attacks at a +9. So if you had medium armor and +2 dex and a shield, you have an AC of 19. Slaad has a 50-50 chance of hitting still. Seems fine. But only a 15AC? You're in trouble.

How about Vampires, at level 13? They also have a +9 attacks. You're still fine. Ultroloth fiend (CR13)? +8 Attack, you're fine.

How about even higher levels, like an Ice Devil (CR 14)? They attack at a +10. So you're not being hit a bit more than 50%, but I suspect by 14th level you probably got that +1 AC.

Around level 16 is when you start to get hit on a more regular basis. An Adult Blue Dragon (CR 16) is a +12 = still they are missing your 19AC sometimes, but not as often as before.

And then at the highest levels, facing things like ancient red dragons (CR 23) and pit fiends, yes your AC finally starts to really break down vs. those +17 attacks. But that's only in the last level or two of the entire game.

So no, I disagree, for the overwhelming majority of the game, an AC 19 is very important relative to an AC 15. It should not be dismissed, just because at level 20 it won't matter as much.

Mistwell said:

Yeah I don't get this "don't get hit" thing. What would stop you getting hit? Lots of PCs are already using their reactions for something else, and you only get one reaction, and once the reaction is used any number of creatures can freely move right past people in the front ranks. The rogue can hide as a bonus action at least, but the bard? Probably just right out in the open standing there, with only someone else's single reaction (if that) between them and doom. And then there are area attacks, ranged attacks, trap attacks, attacks from behind, etc.. You're going to get hit, if you have the lowest AC in the game and you're dangerous.

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Depends on the situation and the bard does have a d8 hit dice, you are not that squishy. Cutting words would be the obvious debuff and some of the rest depends on party composition. If the DM really wants to hit you h will just depends if it is worth it form the monster PoV to suck up the atacks of opportunity to get to you. In the game I DM the fighter has polearm master+sentinel feat and the diviner can manipulate the dice roll. Even if the bard gets KOed its not such a big deal as it takes you 3 rounds to die.

If the DM focuses fire on you all the time and suicides monsters to kill you while you are on the ground no class is really going to be safe from that.

Zardnaar said:

Depends on the situation and the bard does have a d8 hit dice, you are not that squishy. Cutting words would be the obvious debuff and some of the rest depends on party composition. If the DM really wants to hit you h will just depends if it is worth it form the monster PoV to suck up the atacks of opportunity to get to you. In the game I DM the fighter has polearm master+sentinel feat and the diviner can manipulate the dice roll. Even if the bard gets KOed its not such a big deal as it takes you 3 rounds to die.

If the DM focuses fire on you all the time and suicides monsters to kill you while you are on the ground no class is really going to be safe from that.

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I edited to address your claim about AC not mattering at higher levels.

Mistwell said:

I edited to address your claim about AC not mattering at higher levels.

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It matters a lot less. Without magic items monster attack rolls out strip PCs ac which more or less tops out at 17-20 maybe 21. Even with +3 armor have a look at the attack rolls of higher level beasties. Hill Giants are CR5 for example with +8 to hit and hit like the proverbial truck.

Neutralising attacks in some way is better than worrying about AC IMHO. And that is what the bard should be good at, sleep, cutting words, vicious mockery, hynotism, slow etc etc. The bard should not be on the front lines most of the time but the class is not as squishy as a wizard for example as you can wear armor and have a d8 hit dice. If you are worried about AC blow a feat on medium armor or start as a fighter or multiclass as a cleric.

Zardnaar said:

It matters a lot less. Without magic items monster attack rolls out strip PCs ac which more or less tops out at 17-20 maybe 21. Even with +3 armor have a look at the attack rolls of higher level beasties. Hill Giants are CR5 for example with +8 to hit and hit like the proverbial truck.

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I just went through the MM and gave you a whole bunch of examples at various levels. Am I just typing for my own benefit here, or are we having a conversation? All the way up through basically level 18, the difference between an AC of 15 and an AC of 19 will matter a lot. Do you have a response to that, or did you just care about levels 19-20 and the entire rest of your PC career is meaningless?

I mean OK, let's take that hill giant. They have an unusually high attack bonus for CR 5 (since I just listed a CR 13 creature, an Ultroloth, with the same attack bonus) but fine. So AC 19, the hill giant misses more than 50% of the time. AC 15, the hill giant hits more than 50% of the time. That's a meaningful difference, right? Particularly since at level 5 you have a LOT fewer hit points than you would at level 13, it really REALLY matters. Why would that example not demonstrate pretty clearly my point? That AC difference really matters quite a bit.

Neutralising attacks in some way is better than worrying about AC IMHO.

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In no way is this an either/or situation. You don't lose any attack-neutralization abilities by making sure you can wear medium armor and use a shield.

If you are worried about AC blow a feat on medium armor or start as a fighter or multiclass as a cleric.

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Indeed, which is what I said to begin with, and which you replied to. Hello? Is this thing on?

College of Lore bard can't wear a shield. Needs valor or a feat to get this.

AC is useful but 19 is a HIGH AC. Bounded accuracy most higher level PC s will be hit.

So in one sense it is more important than before but harder for bards as it is an investment to get higher AC.

If you want to wield a weapon and a shield and be able to cast a spell you need war caster feat as well.

I guess my point is AC is a good path to invest but bards may want to see invest in other options since 1 to 2 feats is a rough investment

sithramir said:

College of Lore bard can't wear a shield. Needs valor or a feat to get this.

AC is useful but 19 is a HIGH AC. Bounded accuracy most higher level PC s will be hit.

So in one sense it is more important than before but harder for bards as it is an investment to get higher AC.

If you want to wield a weapon and a shield and be able to cast a spell you need war caster feat as well.

I guess my point is AC is a good path to invest but bards may want to see invest in other options since 1 to 2 feats is a rough investment

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Ding ding. You can invest in AC if you feel it matters, personally I would rather be a better bard. I would rather penalise the opponents attacks on me rather than worrying to much about my AC since we are theory crafting AC 15 being the limit. Our bards AC is 17 from mage armor and a ring of protection+1 and 16 dex. Cutting words, the diviner forsee ability, and the light domains flare ability can all help.

How useful AC will be will depend on party composition, magic items, feats, party size and how other PCs have built their character etc etc etc and to many variables. I would not say AC doesn't matter but I would not focus a huge amount of effort towards it. The lore bard in my PC party is 1/6 PC and getting to her via the other 3 spell casters and fighter+polearm+sentinel feat can be difficult and even if you KO her there are 5 other PCs to deal with including a wizard and 2 clerics.

Its not really the lore bards job to be on the front lines most of the time and AC 15-17+ d8 hit dice is not really that much worse than anyone else in the party at lower levels.

I had a deadly encounter on Thursday night, 2 Hill Giants (intelligence 5) and a frost giant. The bard used hypnotism on one of the giants which flunked the save while the other 5 wailed on the other 2 one at a time. The war cleric ate the critical hit and went down, the sentinel fighter locked one of the giants down, the bard hid behind one of the other PCs for a +2 cover bonus to AC and any rocks lobbed at here reduced the giants attacks per round by 1 each and would have to get past cutting word+ diviners foresee ability. So even if the rocks hit said bard she just reduced 6 potential attacks to 2 potential attacks. Thats assuming I as the DM meta gamed creatures with an intelligence of 5 knowing how to break concentration spells. Even if they tried they have to hit AC 19 + cutting words+foresee. I think she used vicious mockery after that and let the damage dealers do their thing.

sithramir said:

College of Lore bard can't wear a shield. Needs valor or a feat to get this.

AC is useful but 19 is a HIGH AC. Bounded accuracy most higher level PC s will be hit.

So in one sense it is more important than before but harder for bards as it is an investment to get higher AC.

If you want to wield a weapon and a shield and be able to cast a spell you need war caster feat as well.

I guess my point is AC is a good path to invest but bards may want to see invest in other options since 1 to 2 feats is a rough investment

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It's one feat (Moderately armored), or one Race (Dwarf) or one level of multiclassing (Cleric 1).

I'm playing a college of Lore bard in our 5e game that is running right now, and I heartily agree with the advice in this thread!

I'm wondering about Vicious Mockery though... maybe my DM just rolls really well, or maybe my 16 Cha isn't good enough to be targeting creatures/opponents with spells, but creatures make their saves on my Mockery ALL THE TIME... kind of stinks.

Mistwell said:

It's one feat (Moderately armored), or one Race (Dwarf) or one level of multiclassing (Cleric 1).

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Exactly. Giving up stat bonus for said feat, another feat, or multi classing which delays when you gain new spells or future stats/feats. A pretty big investment.

I keep hearing how most characters don't see into higher levels so this might be one of 2 or 3 total feats used.