Whats up with Gandalf? Why is he such a nimrod?

Falcon10275

Banned
Banned
I am not trying to be a smart ass here, but something is really bothering me.

I just got done watching the second hobbit, and you know what? Gandalf is a terrible wizard. 1. He seems to never actually use any spells. 2. When he just went barging into that necromancer castle by himself. I mean seriously what the hell was he expecting to accomplish by himself?
 

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I am not trying to be a smart ass here, but something is really bothering me.

I just got done watching the second hobbit, and you know what? Gandalf is a terrible wizard. 1. He seems to never actually use any spells. 2. When he just went barging into that necromancer castle by himself. I mean seriously what the hell was he expecting to accomplish by himself?
1) Magic in Middle-earth doesn't work like it does in D&D. He's not a terrible wizard because he doesn't cast spells very often, that's just how it works in Middle-earth. It's much more subtle than you're (apparently) expecting.

2) Phillippa Boyens and Fran Walsh are terrible screenwriters who can't make any sense out of material that they're adapting. Don't blame Gandalf for that.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I am not trying to be a smart ass here, but something is really bothering me.

I just got done watching the second hobbit...

There is your mistake right there.

The Hobbit movies are terrible movies. Peter Jackson is the Nimrod. He believes he's a better writer than JRR Tolkien, so he thinks he needs to change up everything. As a result, nothing makes sense.

1. He seems to never actually use any spells.

I have a list at home of what he casts in the books in D&D terms, and it's pretty much what you'd expect a D&D wizard to cast. He's particularly fond of lightning bolt and invisibility. He also casts Pyrotechnics. It's almost like he's a lot of the inspiration for a D&D wizard. Granted, there isn't a lot of direct evidence that he's more than 6th level (hense the famous essay), but in Middle Earth terms, that's pretty darn powerful.

2. When he just went barging into that necromancer castle by himself. I mean seriously what the hell was he expecting to accomplish by himself?

Gandalf is a master of shadow, fire, light, and illusion magic. He tends to be very sneaky. He was acting as a scout, arguably because no one else was sneaky enough to pull it off. His main purpose was to determine who this Necromancer was - a fallen Istari, one of the Black Numenoreans, or an unaccounted for Maiar that had been subverted by Morgoth long ago. What he discovers is that it is indeed a fallen Maiar, but not one that was unaccounted for, but Sauron himself, taking a new form. That in itself is an important bit of information. Using that information, Gandalf is able to sway the White Council against Saruman (who is at this point, though its not known, already fallen into evil), and the White Council in turn musters the last army of high elves against Sauron, delaying his rise to power and driving him from Mirkwood - a position from which, unbeknown to Gandalf at the time, Sauron would be able to recover the one ring decades before the Fellowship and usher in a new dark age.

While he's there, he discovers imprisoned the Drawf King Thrain son of Thor, and from Thrain he obtains the map and the key that allows Bilbo to gain entrance to the back door to Smaug's chamber. Bilbo then, acting as a scout, discovers the vital fact that there is a small patch of bare skin in Smaug's otherwise invulnerable armor. This fact is ultimately relayed to Bard the Bowman, who fires an arrow of slaying into the patch (the 'Black Arrow') killing Smaug, who might otherwise been Sauron's chief servant in the north.

Probably in the movie they get everything out of order, mess things up, and add a ton of pointless fighting.
 

Ryujin

Legend
One of the things about magic, in Middle Earth, is that the use of powerful magic gets you noticed. Someone who is trying to fly under the RADAR won't use magic as powerful as he's truly capable of.
 

ShadowDenizen

Explorer
Granted, there isn't a lot of direct evidence that he's more than 6th level (hense the famous essay), but in Middle Earth terms, that's pretty darn powerful.

While the level cap is debatable...
Gandalf is MYTHIC for sure.

He's one of the Istari (5 Wizards), and is a Maiar (the equivalent of a Celestial Being), and can battle the Balrog (ALSO a Maiar) for days on end!

That said?
Yeah, the Gandalf bits of the second movie didn't make mcuh sense anyway.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The Hobbit movies are terrible movies. Peter Jackson is the Nimrod.

Calling folks names, even when they aren't present, does not elevate your discourse.

He believes he's a better writer than JRR Tolkien, so he thinks he needs to change up everything.

Except for the fact that, in the original text, Gandalf *DOESN'T* use a lot of overt magic. He does not do a lot of what a D&D player would consider casting spells. That he doesn't do so in the movies is not a change from the books.

So, while you may not like Jackson's work, this particular item is not an argument against him.
 

Celebrim

Legend
While the level cap is debatable...
Gandalf is MYTHIC for sure.

That he is certainly mythic is the indirect evidence we have that he ought, seemingly, to have broad power. The more difficult question is to what that off screen power translates in D&D terms. Gandalf as an Angel of Wisdom in his fully revealed form probably has something like deific style domain powers, although we are given very little clues as to what they might be, but there isn't a lot sign that he - or even any of the Valar - otherwise has Epic power in the D&D sense. And certainly as an Istari, he has voluntarily given up his glorified form. Any omniscience type ability we might associate with mythic personifications of wisdom isn't actually present when he's is amongst the Children of Iluvatar and in their form.

At some point though, we are just wildly spinning based on things we can't really establish from the text. As Gandalf the Gray, he uses quite a few spells and those spells typically in D&D terms are 3rd level or less. So perhaps we ought to say that Gandalf is at least certainly 6th level in D&D terms, but beyond that we can only speculate.

And just for the record, so we can establish a few ground rules about what needs to be said and what doesn't, I've read The Hobbit in excess of 30 times, the Lord of the Rings somewhere above 16 times, and the Silmarillion somewhere above 5 times. I've also read 'The Lost Road', 'Morgoth's Ring' and all the various 'Lost Tales' and Christopher compilations of his father's notes. I read secondary Tolkien criticism and own copies of same. My freaking real life nickname is in Sindarin. So, we don't need to establish basic tenants of the cannon.

Calling folks names, even when they aren't present, does not elevate your discourse.

For the record, I'd have no problem saying so to his face either, nor was elevation of the discourse my intention. My intention was to clearly place culpability for Gandalf's actions in the movie where it belongs using unambiguous language that I was sure the OP would understand.

As for the myth that Gandalf doesn't use many spells, I would say, "Compared to what?" Gandalf employs a considerable number of spells in the Hobbit. What I think we have though is literary power creep. Gandalf represents an early edition or version of the non-occult wizard in literature. At the time, Gandalf I think compares favorably to other literary wizards in terms of the scope and utility of his magic. It's just that any wizard that comes after him, tends to try to out Gandalf Gandalf.

Against the Trolls, Gandalf employs ventriloquism and trickery to make each troll think the other is talking. This isn't implicitly called out as 'spells' or 'magic', but note that in Middle Earth any sort of superhuman skillfulness is the same as magic, and in early editions of D&D (which lacked skills) the same sort of thing is true in reverse. If you wanted to emulate voices and make your voice seem to come from somewhere it wasn't, you were using a spell. One of the first time's Gandalf is in a pinch, versus the Goblins, we see him cast in quick succession Lightning Bolt, Invisibility, and Pyrotechnics. Later versus the wolves, he employs some sort of spell that turns pinecones into fiery grenades (some sort of 'Produce Flame'). After that, Gandalf largely leaves the story till the very end, when we again see him employing invisibility and the like. In the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf employs among other things fireball, knock, and hold portal.

One of the few times that Gandalf is seen employing magic casually is in his smoke ring duel with Thorin, but even then, Gandalf has an object. Bilbo has just made a terrible first impression on Thorin, committing the cardinal sin of losing his composure, and Gandalf has to remind Thorin forcefully of his superior wisdom in this matter.

Gandalf is a big time wizard. No one else in the story comes close to displaying the range and breadth of magical lore he does. When the Hobbit was first published, Tolkien hasn't yet really settled on much of the cannon. Gandalf as Olórin, and even the magic ring as The One Ring are not fully settled on as conceptions. As such, Tolkien isn't even trying very hard to present Gandalf as this hidden source of power. He's presenting him as this mysterious old wandering wizard that does all this fantastic magic.

We've become rather jaded since then, partly as a result of the Wizard as D&D/RPG trope, partly out of standard power creep. But additionally, I think Tolkien is pulling off a literary trick. We hardly ever see Gandalf not use magic when faced with a problem. He's using magic all the time in ways both subtle and sometimes grand. That's what Tolkien is showing us. But what Tolkien is telling us the whole time in various ways is, "This guy... he's really concealing his power. He could do so much more. You really haven't seen a fraction of his power." This increases Gandalf's numinous and mysterious nature, and serves within the story Tolkien's theological purposes, but at the same time it causes us to remember more what Gandalf didn't do and less of what he did. Fundamentally the justification that Gandalf doesn't use a lot of magic, is that Tokien told us he didn't use a lot of magic. Pay no attention to all the fireballs and lightning bolts he slings every time he's uncloaked.
 

going ONLY by the movies, Gandalf does indeed seem not to be the typical D&D style wizard at least to me a non- purist regarding Tolkien's works who loved the movies.
 
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Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Its been stated already but I'll do it again Gandalf is a Maiar and Ishtari and although the commoners might translate that as Wizard he is in fact Not a wizard.

He should probably be viewed more as a member of celestial race able to cast an unlimited range of spells from various thematic lists.
 

Its been stated already but I'll do it again Gandalf is a Maiar and Ishtari and although the commoners might translate that as Wizard he is in fact Not a wizard.

He should probably be viewed more as a member of celestial race able to cast an unlimited range of spells from various thematic lists.

I view him as a plot device at least regarding a few parts of the movies
 

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