D&D 5E Does RAW have a place in 5e?

pemerton

Legend
I'm probably pretty bad at D&D.
That seems unnecessarily modest!

I think "mechanical fidiliness" is a part of the D&D brand, for better or worse.
Maybe. I just find this an unhappy combination with loose presentation.

I think Moldvay and Denning both made excellent starter sets because they presented the rules in a useful-as-written manner, and were building on basically solid (but not realistic) pre-extant rules.

I've not seen the starter set rules, but having seen the characters, it looks a bit short of the mark. Not because the rules are bad (in fact, I think 5e is probably the best rule for D&D to date), but because the writing isn't terribly newb-friendly. It needs the 5e answer to Moldvay. And so far, the Basic Rules PDFs aren't there
I don't know Denning's starter set, but I think it is hard to exaggerate the quality of Moldvay's.

Clear rules presentation; clear, helpful and non-dogmatic GM advice; useful worked examples; it puts the 5e Basic PDF to shame.

The DM has all the authority at the table.
Do you mean by this that the player's need the GM's permission to make action declarations for their PCs?
 

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KarinsDad

Adventurer
Note, "a consistent set of rulings from a good DM" is unlikely to ever get challenged by players aren't they? I mean, if the DM is good and is making consistent rulings, why would the players feel the need to challenge them?

Because the player does not like the ruling?

I'll give an example. I was running a Champions game. The bad guys were very skilled and smart. I had a desolidified guy put a bomb into the jet engine of the spaceship that the PCs were going to use. He went deep into the bowels of the engine, let the bomb solidify, and then walked away. He did this hours before the PCs even got there. There was no way without some type of advanced powers (X-ray vision, super sense of smell, etc.) were going to find the bomb. The entire scenario was set up by a genius villain who took all types of contingencies into account and worked to ensure that the heroes were in the dark.

So one player with a good Perception (forget the name of the skill in Champions) decided to search the spaceship. No special powers and he was searching a decent sized space ship for a few minutes before takeoff. I told him that he did not find anything (because there was nothing to find with his abilities).

When the bomb went off, the player went ballistic. He had asked to search and I had not even given him a roll (the reason for that is if he would have rolled great, I would have either had to modify the scenario, or he would have been even more ticked off). Some players are immature and just do not like some things that the DM does. A different player would have accepted the situation/adjudication without batting an eye.

If you are being challenged by your players on rulings, it might be time to step back and do a bit of self examination on just how good of a DM you really are.

That doesn't logically follow. Someone could be a great DM and be challenged by his players because they are disruptive players. One has to not just wonder about the DM, but also has to wonder about the players. Are they rules lawyers? Are they disruptive? Are they people who typically get their way in an FRPG? Or are they just the type of people who like discussing every little detail to the nth degree, including DM adjudications?

I suspect that some players who often question DM adjudications are just opinionated people who cannot keep their mouths shut on unimportant stuff.

IOW, most players are not challenging rules because they are bad players, or want to gain unfair advantages or anything nefarious like that. I truly believe that players are earnestly trying to make the game better for everyone at the table, just like the DM is. We all have the same goal, so, why not work together towards that goal, rather than resting all the responsibility and power in the hands of one person. Many heads are typically better than one.

I think that people are people. Good ones. Bad ones. And you find this in nearly every group of people, even if they are your friends.

When it comes to adjudicating, many heads are not typically better than one. An experienced DM is typically better at adjudicating than a player who has rarely or never been a DM. No doubt, a player can and often does come up with a good idea. But it's the responsibility of the DM to have the final word and either go with those ideas or not, not the players.

To be fair, there are bad players out there too. But, that's a separate issue. I'm presuming good faith on everyone's part, player and DM alike. There's been numerous posts in this thread alone where that presumption is not shared by DM's.

It's not a separate issue. It's often the root cause of problems at tables. It's usually not the DM, it's usually one or more disruptive players.

Many of us have had bad experiences with subpar DMs, but the simple solution to that is to move on. It's sometimes harder to ask problem players to leave than to leave yourself, especially if those players are close friends.
 

IOW, most players are not challenging rules because they are bad players, or want to gain unfair advantages or anything nefarious like that. I truly believe that players are earnestly trying to make the game better for everyone at the table, just like the DM is. We all have the same goal, so, why not work together towards that goal, rather than resting all the responsibility and power in the hands of one person. Many heads are typically better than one.

You're lucky. As a DM or fellow player, I've yet to see someone challenge a DM's ruling for reasons beyond "you're ruining my awesome combo" or "you're not allowing my druid to screw this legendary opponent with a single casting of contagion". IME, players only care enough to raise a concern about a DM's choice of ruling when it's directly hurting their "path to victory".
 

mlund

First Post
Is something broken under one otherwise plausible reading of the rules? Does it vastly deviate from the rest of the game's framework? Then you probably need a ruling to keep things consistent.

Is something that the PCs or NPCs want to do not have specific rules? Looks like you need a ruling to hold things together.

Is a player or DM trying to use a mechanic (say, the back-end attack of a pole-arm) using rules that come from older editions of D&D or other games that aren't in the current rulebooks (like requiring both "ends" of a double-ended weapon be enchanted separately to gain the magic effects)? Yeah, probably time to pull out RAW and make sure we're starting from the same core rules framework.

Is the DM fudging mechanical outcomes that go against NPCs because that's not germane to the plot he or she has envisions? That's not even a rules debate. That's a Table Expectations discussion.

- Marty Lund
 

aramis erak

Legend
Most of the time, my players ask about rules because either they understand a given rule differently than I did, or because they or I misread it.

Lately, it's been mostly misreads, and about even odds. In one case, it was due to me looking in the rules section for Darkvision, while the races have a different wording...
 

Iosue

Legend
These are my touchstones, as both player and DM.

Mike Carr said:
Lastly, it is important to remember that the Dungeon Master is the final arbiter in his or her game. If players disagree with you, hear them out and reasonably consider their complaint. However, you are the final judge—and they should understand that, as well as the fact that not everything will go their way, or as they expect. Be fair, but be firm. With human nature as it is, players will undoubtedly attempt to try to talk you into (or out of) all sorts of things; part of the fun of being a DM is this verbal interplay. But in the end, what you say is what goes.

Tom Moldvay said:
The DM decides how these rules will be used in the game. A good DM talks about problem areas with the players and considers reasonable requests by them. The players should realize, however, that the final decision is the DM's: not theirs, and not this booklet's! If a disagreement holds up play, the DM may make a temporary decision and talk it over with the players when the adventure is over. If a player disagrees enough, he or she may quit the game. It is up to the DM to create an adventure the players can enjoy.

I don't care about being right, as either player or DM. I value keeping the game moving. As a player, I may make a rules-clarification or object to a particular call. How the DM responds to that is final; let's just get back to the game. If I feel strongly about it, we can talk afterwards. As a DM, I'm happy to field input from players. I will consider it, and then make my call. And then back to the game. If the objection is strong, we can discuss it after the game.
 

Hussar

Legend
To me, there's two most plausible scenarios:

1. A single player is consistently challenging the DM's rulings. Most likely, this one is on the player. There's likely a mismatch in playstyles going on here, or even a case of a flat out bad player, since the other people at the table seem pretty happy with what's going on. And this certainly happens. We've all played with that guy at one time or another. This sort of thing is probably best resolved away from the table. Either come up with a few table rules for keeping things running smoothly (don't challenge rules during the game, please, but feel free after the session, that sort of thing) or, in a more extreme case, maybe it's better if said player parts ways with the group.

Note, no one in this scenario has to be an asshat for this to happen. It could simply be a bad match of playstyles. I know this has certainly happened to me on both sides of the screen. No one was being a jerk, it's just that our understandings of the game were so badly matched that it was a bad idea for that player to be part of that group. Not a major problem.

or

2. Several players are challenging the DM repeatedly. Now, again, it could be a simple playstyle issue, but, at that point, it might be a case where the DM needs to shift to accommodate the needs of that table. But, IMO, more likely, the DM is making rulings that he or she thinks are fair/consistent, but, in fact are neither. The DM may have a tenuous grasp on mechanics (It's okay, my winging it is better than anything you find in a game book anyway!) or may flat out be an asshat (and, again, there's loads of us who've played with that guy. If you've ever seen or been subject to a player revolt, likely it's not the players who are the problem. If five people, as a group, turn to you and tell you that they don't want you to be the DM, then it's really time to do some self evaluation.

Note, I'd point out that KarinsDad's example isn't really an adjudication issue so much as a mismatch of game expectations. The player, rightly or wrongly, feels that the DM just screwed him over by not allowing any chance of detecting the villain's plot and having no chance means that his character just died without any opportunity to save himself. I could see the player not being happy with that, regardless of how much in game justification you can come up with. But, again, this isn't really an rules adjudication issue, since, even by RAW, there was no way that the player could have detected the bomb. KarinsDad simply set up a Kobayashi Maru scenario and ran with it.
 

prosfilaes

Adventurer
I'll give an example. I was running a Champions game. The bad guys were very skilled and smart. I had a desolidified guy put a bomb into the jet engine of the spaceship that the PCs were going to use. He went deep into the bowels of the engine, let the bomb solidify, and then walked away. He did this hours before the PCs even got there. There was no way without some type of advanced powers (X-ray vision, super sense of smell, etc.) were going to find the bomb. The entire scenario was set up by a genius villain who took all types of contingencies into account and worked to ensure that the heroes were in the dark.

I'm with Hussar here; this is not a rules issue. I don't understand; did other players enjoy this? Why did you think this would be fun? I mean, the DM can always create an unbeatable villain to defeat the players, and you didn't even give them the farce of a roll.

Some players are immature and just do not like some things that the DM does.

One sign of immaturity is dismissing problems other people have what what you do as all their own fault.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
Hussar I would like to have your players.

Very few of mine actually contribute much to the world building, one most of the time has issues remembering what happened last session. I am lucky with a couple who are very motivated and communicate with me between sessions they write game journals. They actual read the handouts. I have one who has been playing for years and he really does not know the rules that well yet he is the one who will argue with me the most usually because he does not like something that happened with his PC.

There are players who don't ever want their PCs to fail or anything bad to happen to them and so often their interpretation of the rules is one that gives them a huge benefit to their PC.

As DM I know what things are going on behind the scenes that they don't know which can have an impact on the rules. For example in a game I was running which had a lot of intrigue the clerics of two of the most powerful churches almost went to war. The bard a spellscale managed to use his diplomacy to stave it off. He was not really good at talking so I allowed him to tell me what the gist of what he was going to say then roll. He rolled a natural 20 which in our game adds a +10 to the roll so with his high skill he got close to a 40. So yeah he made friends and changed many people opinion of spellscales all except for the primate of ST Cuthbert's church. Who acted rude and dismissive to him.

The player got really angry over this and kept arguing with me how the rules for diplomacy work. I kept saying to him yes I know but not this time with this guy. I asked him to roll a sense motive which he flubbed on the primate. I finally had to call a time out and take a break because of the argument. Several of the other players were confused too and backing his argument about how diplomacy works. Here is the thing the primate was not who he seemed to be he was in league with the bad guys and the bard had just foiled a major plan they had been working on. I don't care what your diplomacy roll is you are not going to make him friendly with you.

After I asked for the sense motive roll and the fact I kept saying things like it seems strange he would treat you this way the other players finally grasped oh maybe something weird is going on here. They tried to get him to see it but he was to angry to listen.

So I don't think that just because the bulk of players agree on something that they are necessarily right. Again I think it comes down to trusting your DM. That there is a reason for what is happening. This player who is a good friend in real life who I don't play with anymore except when he DMs has major trust issued when it comes to DMs he was burned by bad ones. He is a good DM but dome of us including his wife when she was alive wanted to DM for him because of it.
 


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