Rogue Investigator Subclass

Still a work in progress, so advice/feedback would be cool

Investigator
Your strongest weapon is not a bow or dagger but your keen mind and quick wits. You are adept at piecing together evidence and observing details others might miss, and can quickly communicate these details to your allies. Detectives, archaeologists, and some monster hunters often belong to this archetype. Some investigators remain criminals, becoming masterminds who rely on underlings for theft and murder.

Identify Weakness
Starting at 3rd level, when you take the Help action to aid a creature's attack and that attack hits, the creature deals extra damage equal to your Sneak Attack damage.

Keen Observations
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to take the Search action.
In additional, if not already proficient in Survival you can add your proficiency bonus to Wisdom (Survival) checks to follow tracks.

Evaluate Target
Starting at 9th level, you have learned how to study a creature to learn its capabilities and physical characteristics and mannerisms. For each minute you spend watching the creature, you learn if it is your equal, superior, or inferior in one the following characteristics:

• An ability score
• A skill
• Total class levels (if any)
• Rogue class levels (if any)

At the DM's discretion you might discover other information such as a special ability, vulnerability, or personality trait such as an ideal or bond.

Web of Informants
By 9th level, you have acquired a number of agents and contacts you can approach for information and research materials. While in a settlement where you have a contact you have advantage on all Intelligence (Investigation) checks made while researching using downtime days.
In addition, you are typically aware of current events as your contacts will dispatch messages to inform you of noteworthy developments and occasionally approach you with new information.

Distant Assistance
At 13th level, you can direct attacks while keeping yourself a safe distance away. You can use the Help action to aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 15 feet of you.

Sudden Advantage
When you reach 17th level, when an ally within 15 feet rolls makes a critical hit you can use the Help action as a reaction.

--edited--
Dec 22, 2014
Changed Active Research to Evaluate Target, removing the bonus to disguise (too much at L9 otherwise)
Added the advantage on researching to Web of Informants.
Changed Sudden Advantage to trigger on a critical hit.

I love the archetype you're going for, and I think this is a good first stab at it. So to speak The features really give the feel of a researcher type calling out to his allies to "go for the nictating membrane a-- just go for the eyes!"

The mechanics are solid, but for me at least a bit...cold and clinical? While I can see how the features feed into the archetype and a certain style of play, when I read them I'm not getting the adventurous feeling...they don't evoke that excitement of playing and Indiana Jones or Sherlock Holmes type.

I know that is rather nebulous critique. To make it more concrete...there was a feature of the old rogue class (1e maybe?) where you got a treasure map once per week thru your contacts. Stuff like that might go a long way to bringing out the feel you're aiming for. Just my two cents.

Like it as well!

Isn't Sudden Advantage too situational to be useful (and the top ability of the archetype)?

erf_beto said:

Like it as well!

Isn't Sudden Advantage too situational to be useful (and the top ability of the archetype)?

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It is the ability I'm least happy with, especially since it also requires the DM to tell the player he rolled a 1.

I like the concept of using Help reactively, which balances well with other rogue powers at that level, and had the fun flavour of the investigator shouting "now, hit it now!" But I need a trigger.

Quickleaf said:

The mechanics are solid, but for me at least a bit...cold and clinical? While I can see how the features feed into the archetype and a certain style of play, when I read them I'm not getting the adventurous feeling...they don't evoke that excitement of playing and Indiana Jones or Sherlock Holmes type.

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Before I settled on the disguise power for level 9 I had considered the web of informants angle. The Baker Street Irregulars if you will.
It might still work as a more flavourful power.

Jester Canuck said:

It is the ability I'm least happy with, especially since it also requires the DM to tell the player he rolled a 1.

I like the concept of using Help reactively, which balances well with other rogue powers at that level, and had the fun flavour of the investigator shouting "now, hit it now!" But I need a trigger.

Click to expand...

Two thoughts:

1) Why not just let the Investigator use Help as his reaction, period, no qualification? Let the player choose any trigger they want to use the reactive Help with.

2) One thing I'd expect to see with this archetype is something akin to the Battle Master's 7th level Know Your Enemy feature. I would expect an Investigator to be able to perceive their enemy's weaknesses and exploit them.

Quickleaf said:

Two thoughts:

1) Why not just let the Investigator use Help as his reaction, period, no qualification? Let the player choose any trigger they want to use the reactive Help with.

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That's the tricky thing as I don't want to double the uses of sneak attack each round. Both the thief and assassin can effectively double their damage in one round (usually the first round of combat). So I'd like a way to limit the reaction to close to once/combat (or every other combat). But without the artificiality of requiring a short rest.

Tying it to a natural 1 seemed liked reasonable way. As would a crit. Something that leaves the enemy open.

Quickleaf said:

2) One thing I'd expect to see with this archetype is something akin to the Battle Master's 7th level Know Your Enemy feature. I would expect an Investigator to be able to perceive their enemy's weaknesses and exploit them.

Click to expand...

That is a good idea.

I really like where this is going, rogue with a dash of battlemaster for the combat role and special abilities tied to investigation.
Some thoughts:
* Help an ally to give them your SA damage is very good, I agree the damage should still be limited to once per turn. Do you also have to be adjacent to the creature/ally? The higher level version of this ability should probably have the same conditions on it (for the ally) as regular SA, and/or recharge on a short rest. I wouldn't want even a high-level investigator sitting on the flying carpet saying "You get SA. Now YOU get SA. Now you over there get SA." Every round.
* Keen observation is a cool ability and nice touch.

Now for the tricky bit:

The 9th level powers are cool but not really game-changing and come in a bit late. The assassin/spy already does disguise, so maybe that can be left out of the Investigator (player can always get the proficiency).

Web of contacts--what if this keyed off the PCs background somehow? That is, when you reach 9th level as an investigator then certain background features become much more powerful and widespread in application? I'd like to see it come in earlier though.

Watching unobserved--I think this is the best candidate for a signature 9th-level power, and I would accept it as a DM even if it were more powerful: After 1 minute studying a person or creature (not necessarily unobserved), you can learn (Int bonus) of the following facts about them: a proficient skill, a proficient saving throw, an ability score (relative to yours), a physical weakness (if any), total level or CR... the player should feel free to suggest others. This models the Sherlock Holmes' trick "obvious he's a day laborer down on his luck, because he hurt his arm last month and since then has spent too much time in the gambling den..."

Sudden Advantage: I think a power that lets them negate a single attack that would have hit would be a good capstone.

here is my personal investigator version of your archetype:

Investigator

Your strongest weapon is not a bow or dagger but your keen mind and quick wits. You are adept at piecing together evidence and observing details others might miss, and can quickly communicate these details to your allies. Detectives, archaeologists, and some monster hunters often belong to this archetype. Some investigators remain criminals, becoming masterminds who rely on underlings for theft and murder.

Bonus proficiencies

Starting at 3rd level, You gain proficiency in investigation, perception and insight.

Keen Observations

Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to take the Search action.

If you spend at least 1 hour eavesdropping, asking questions, and staking out a location you can make an Intelligence check as if you were proficient in Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion. If you spend at least 8 hours you double your proficiency bonus on the check.

In additional, if not already proficient in Survival you can add your proficiency bonus to Wisdom (Survival) checks to follow tracks.

Identify Weakness

Starting at 9rd level, when you take the Help action to aid a creature's attack and that attack hits, the creature deals extra damage equal to your Sneak Attack damage.

Active Research

Starting at 9th level, you have advantage on all Intelligence (Investigation) checks made while researching using downtime days.
Also, You can study people to learn their capabilities. For each minute you spend watching the creature while unobserved, you learn if it is your equal, superior, or inferior in one the following characteristics:
• An ability score
• A proficient skill
• Total class levels (if any)
• Rogue class levels (if any)


Distant Assistance

At 13th level, you can direct attacks while keeping yourself a safe distance away. You can use the Help (regular or identify weakness action) to aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 15 feet of you.


Great insight

Starting at 17th level, your checks against being Disarmed, Grappled, Overrun, Shoved, Tumbled past, or Pushed Aside are advantaged, as are your saving throws against Battle Master maneuvers.

(based on Freetyle fighting from Quickleaf at http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?394575-Swashbuckler-and-Ship-Mage-(new-archetypes) )

The archetype is able to help others efficiently and also can resist special combat actions. The thief has no combat bonus before 17th level, so this archetype is more combat worthy...

fuindordm said:

I really like where this is going, rogue with a dash of battlemaster for the combat role and special abilities tied to investigation.
Some thoughts:
* Help an ally to give them your SA damage is very good, I agree the damage should still be limited to once per turn. Do you also have to be adjacent to the creature/ally?

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At level 1 the wording of Help doesn't change, you need to be close to the target. Within 5 feet. The ally just needs to be close enough to make a melee attack
As helping is your action, it's automatically limited to once/per turn (and the bonus dmg is only to the next attack).

fuindordm said:

The higher level version of this ability should probably have the same conditions on it (for the ally) as regular SA, and/or recharge on a short rest. I wouldn't want even a high-level investigator sitting on the flying carpet saying "You get SA. Now YOU get SA. Now you over there get SA." Every round.

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Why not every round? The alternative is the rogue using SA every round. It's potentially less damage as the rogue isn't adding their weapon damage on top.

On paper there would be a *slight* increase to DPR for the party as the ally would have advantage, increasing the beefy fighter or barbarian's chances of landing a hit, and adding sneak damage on top.
But if the ally has multiple attacks, the Help (and thus the sneak attack) would only apply to the first. Unlike the rogue that might be able to two weapon fight and have multiple chances to land that sneak. So that brings the expected damage in line. So it should be balanced.

fuindordm said:

The 9th level powers are cool but not really game-changing and come in a bit late. The assassin/spy already does disguise, so maybe that can be left out of the Investigator (player can always get the proficiency).

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I'm downplaying that a little bit. Waffling on the flavour and if the rogue needs to be disguised or not to evaluate someone.
I like the idea of disguises, as that was a big part of Sherlock Holmes, but generic investigators might move away from that.

fuindordm said:

Web of contacts--what if this keyed off the PCs background somehow? That is, when you reach 9th level as an investigator then certain background features become much more powerful and widespread in application? I'd like to see it come in earlier though.

Click to expand...

A neat idea, but hard to implement without a long list of backgrounds.

fuindordm said:

Watching unobserved--I think this is the best candidate for a signature 9th-level power, and I would accept it as a DM even if it were more powerful: After 1 minute studying a person or creature (not necessarily unobserved), you can learn (Int bonus) of the following facts about them: a proficient skill, a proficient saving throw, an ability score (relative to yours), a physical weakness (if any), total level or CR... the player should feel free to suggest others. This models the Sherlock Holmes' trick "obvious he's a day laborer down on his luck, because he hurt his arm last month and since then has spent too much time in the gambling den..."

Click to expand...

I'm beefing that up. The web of contacts is neat but more flavourful. Evaluating people is the biggie for 9.

fuindordm said:

Sudden Advantage: I think a power that lets them negate a single attack that would have hit would be a good capstone.

Click to expand...

I'll think on that.