D&D 5E Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?

jayoungr said:

It's not clearly suicidal; they're helping to defend the town, not doing it single-handedly. And they do not have to confront the dragon.

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How do they know that they are helping to defend a town? How do you know that they do not have to confront the dragon (without plot immunity)? If the dragon flies up to them and attacks, how do they avoid confronting the dragon?


In real life, a MiG is strafing a town. A platoon of men are setting fire to that town. Another platoon is attacking people.

There are (typically) 3 to 6 of you in a squad (i.e. a party). You have no air support. No backup. No heavy weapons. You know that your small arms are going to do practically nothing against a MiG.

You are going to take on a MiG and a few platoons of men fighting in the town on the off chance that there might be other soldiers in the town to assist?

Seriously? Without explicit orders to do so? My dad was in the army. He would laugh at this idea. Heroic tendencies, or no heroic tendencies. You come upon an obviously heavily superior force, you do not try to sneak up on it or go attack it unless you have orders to the contrary (or possibly info, like you know that another group is going to counterattack).


You are using metagaming knowledge about how the adventure is designed to make a decision when the PCs are far down the road and they cannot see what exactly is going on. They do know that a dragon is attacking. That's described right away (at least it was to us). And they are told as they get closer that creatures are moving through town attacking and setting fire to buildings. Our DM showed us a picture of a flying dragon and a smoking building.

That's what the players have to work with. They do not know that there will be other defenders, at least that description was not given to my group as we sat down the road looking at the town.

They do not know that they do not have to confront the dragon. That is metagaming knowledge that you just posted, but it is not part of what the PCs (or players) know.


From the PC's perspective, it is nearly 100% suicidal. Later on in the adventure, they find out that the dragon is really not interested in fighting, but that is not the initial set of information supplied by the adventure.

Do not use metagaming thinking. Use in character thinking and it becomes crystal clear that this is a suicide mission unless all of the PCs are super stealthy. Even then, dragons historically in D&D and hence in "in game" culture have very keen senses. Stealth should not even be an option (assuming the PCs make a nature check or some such to know that dragons have keen senses).

Hussar said:

it's a Forgotten Realms adventure - high heroism and badassery is to be expected isn't it?

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I haven't played much D&D since 1E (played LOTS of other TRPGs). I walk into a game store. They have a poster about the release of 5E, and they're hosting a game playing an intro adventure in 5E. I decide that I'll give D&D another try. I pay a small fee, I show up on Game Night. I've got a first level character; decent stats, and some interesting new-to-me abilities, and single-digit HP. I'm well aware that I'm not (yet) a bad-ass. I'm more like Hermione in her second year at Hogwarts. I've played characters who could single-handedly defeat this D&D first level party that I've just now joined.

Do you think that Adventurer's League should assume that people like me don't exist or don't matter, and presume that everyone playing HotDQ *knows* that (a) the setting is FR and (b) everywhere in FR, "You see a dragon devastating a village" means "It's time to charge into the village"?

An appropriate heroic response, from what my PC knows of their abilities relative to a dragon, and what I know as a player from Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun: help refugees fleeing the village, provide medical care, search for survivors trapped under rubble, and then go tell faction contacts, local liege lord, and people with double-digit HP.

If the designers had lured the PCs to the town and suddenly, a dragon show up, that would have been more of a wow factor.

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That is how I originally read the scenario. I read it quickly and just read 'Cult of the Dragon' rather than 'a blue dragon and the Cult of the Dragon'

I thought it was a great idea to make the players think they are just going in to deal with some kobolds. And then bam, there is a dragon. Now they need to hide. Making 1st level characters feel powerless against superior adversaries sets up a payoff later when they are able to defeat those same adversaries.

This was a missed opportunity I think and I am going to run the adventure the way I had originally read it.

I read the entire scenario with a different tone than other people because I missed that part I think.

KarinsDad said:

Are you a new DM? This is the showcase adventure of the new edition.

Yes, as an experienced DM, if my players decide to not even go into the town, I describe how they see the dragon flying toward the mountains. At that point, the game is back on track.

But for a new DM, this thought might not even enter his or her mind.

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I meant drop the dragon encounter at the keep. Some people are unhappy with this one since it requires some character protection and is scripted. Having the dragon simply fly away at dawn when its job is done creates the same result. I totally with you though that the adventure is not at all ideal for a new DM. I doubt this is really the target audience form having played it.

From your other post

Same final result. Different presentation. And the designers did not have to pick one or the other. They could have said "If you feel that your PCs might not want to confront a dragon, have the dragon show up later. But if your PCs are the self sacrificing types of heroes, then have the dragon there right away so that they can shine.". This would have been a better setup, especially for new DMs.

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This is a good idea. Not having read the adventure I don't know exactly what it says but this kind of advice is probably missing.

Whenever we start a campaign (and that's what this is, not an adventure) the DM elaborates on the general theme to guide the players what sort of characters to create. Of course players are free to ignore but it works better in the long run when they take it on board. I would portray the Hoard of the Dragon Queen as a heroic campaign against a mighty evil where the characters will frequently be asked to risk their lives against overwhelming odds.

Without some pre-warning that first scene overlooking the town can be a bit surprising. I know when we played it there was absolutely no discussion what we should do. We would head into town to try and help save a few souls even if it meant our probable death

trentonjoe said:

I am playing this so it's from an players eyes.

I like HotDQ. I absolutely loved Chapter 1. The pace and time restraints made the whole thing interesting. I didn't mind the challenge or dragon.

I like the dungeon crawl part as well (Chapter 3?). There were some logic issues in it but that may have been our DM pulling some punches.

Chapter 2 and 5 were a little to "it only works if you do exactly this" for my tastes but not awful.

I generally prefer to play in games where there isn't a "right" answer but I it isn't a deal breaker to me.

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I also loved Chapter 1 - one of the best low-level "lots of replayability" chapters I've seen.

I found chapter 2 to be a wide open "Here's the goal, here's the problems, have a wild time of it"...

My group wound up not so much infiltrating as driving them off... Eclipse (Tiefling Warlock) got himself quite captured.... while the others (Groo (half-ork Fighter), Nick (Gnome Wizard),Pack (human thief), Sarc (drow assassin)) observed, and then rescued Eclipse and Leosin. They also burned the huts in the south end of the compound... and Eclipse took a breath weapon to the back. (They were picked up by Pack and Groo and carried out.)

Another table at the store went in and faked it as if cultists. A third snuck in and hid, listening from hiding, then raided the cave before the cult left.

Lots of room for player choices of actions in chapter 2. Just a goal, and enough info to handle it. No "you must do X" bits in chapter 2, but lots of "You can give XP for doing X" options.


Chapter 3 is a good solid dungeon crawl. The dungeon is itself a bit of a railroad... but all dungeons are, to an extent.

Chapter 4 is also a bit railroady — get hired to go on this travel bit — but as with Chapter 2, lots of room to work around the story. Lots of NPC's; some to fight, some to talk to, some to intimidate. (Eclipse managed a 22 to protect a certain animate Macguffin from one of the encounters... kind of nerfed that bit, but also resulted in an assassin taking out Sarc)

Mind you, I've only read through CHapter 6 in any detail, and my guys just got to chapter 5. Chapter 4 was easily run, and is quite replayable due to the randomizations and array of events, some of which are not going to get done.

Anyone claiming chapters 1, 2, 3, or 4 is a "one way only" hasn't actually comprehended what's there.

KarinsDad said:

How do they know that they are helping to defend a town?

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Because there's a keep full of other defenders whom they are helping. The keep is on a hill in the center of town and should be clearly visible from the road, plus any PC who is from the town would know about it.

How do you know that they do not have to confront the dragon (without plot immunity)? If the dragon flies up to them and attacks, how do they avoid confronting the dragon?

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Wha-? I don't even get this question. The dragon doesn't fly up and attack unless the DM directs it to! And the adventure explicitly says the DM doesn't have to do the dragon encounter unless he/she wants to (page 7). That's what I meant when I said the PCs would not necessarily have to fight the dragon.

Otherwise, the dragon is just circling and occasionally doing breath strikes on buildings from the air. It's not directly targeting the PCs.

You are going to take on a MiG and a few platoons of men fighting in the town on the off chance that there might be other soldiers in the town to assist?

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No, you're going to know that there are other soldiers because there's a clearly visible fortified keep. You take shelter in the keep and, if you're very brave, you accept a mission to nip through the chaos--dodging the MiG fire, taking cover when necessary, and having occasional skirmishes when you can't sneak past the attackers--to rescue some civilians and bring them to safety. That's what the opening scenario asks the PCs to do. And if they need added inducements beyond simple bravery, that's what the suggested Bonds in the back of the book are for: this might be a PC's hometown that he/she is defending, or perhaps the PC has a special burning grudge against the attackers.

Our DM showed us a picture of a flying dragon and a smoking building.

That's what the players have to work with. They do not know that there will be other defenders, at least that description was not given to my group as we sat down the road looking at the town.

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I think your DM should have mentioned the keep. According to the town map, it should be easily visible from the road. Do you think that would have changed your perspective on the situation?

Use in character thinking and it becomes crystal clear that this is a suicide mission unless all of the PCs are super stealthy.

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What "mission" are you talking about? The PCs don't get any "missions" until they're inside the keep. Their initial goal is just to get to that relatively safe place.

I won't say there's no way for a DM to screw up this part of the adventure. I won't say it's not reasonable for at least some of the PCs to want to run away when they see the town is under attack. But that's what I meant when I said the DM has to get them involved. Yes, they have to have a reason to go into danger rather than away from it, but that's true of almost any D&D game sooner or later.

But you know what? I don't really expect to convince you, KarinsDad. I know that your mind is made up on this subject. At this point, I'm mostly trying to present an alternate perspective for someone who might be trying to decide whether to run this for a group. Merry Christmas.

jayoungr said:

Because there's a keep full of other defenders whom they are helping.

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That the PCs do not know about.

jayoungr said:

Wha-? I don't even get this question. The dragon doesn't fly up and attack unless the DM directs it to! And the adventure explicitly says the DM doesn't have to do the dragon encounter unless he/she wants to (page 7). That's what I meant when I said the PCs would not necessarily have to fight the dragon.

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Again, the players (and PCs) do not know this.

The players do not know that "the adventure explicitly says". The DM should know that, but not the players.

The players (and PCs) know that a dragon is attacking.


Going to the town because that is the "adventure du jour" when a dragon is attacking the town is metagaming unless the PCs are either suicidal, or willing to do a heroic sacrifice.

jayoungr said:

No, you're going to know that there are other soldiers because there's a clearly visible fortified keep on a hill in the center of town. You take shelter in the keep and, if you're very brave, you accept a mission to nip through the chaos--dodging the MiG fire, taking cover when necessary, and having occasional skirmishes when you can't sneak past the attackers--to rescue some civilians and bring them to safety. That's what the opening scenario asks the PCs to do. And if they need added inducements beyond simple bravery, that's what the suggested Bonds in the back of the book are for: this might be a PC's hometown that he/she is defending, or perhaps the PC has a special burning grudge against the attackers.

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After the fact knowledge that you are discussing.

When on the road, the PCs (and players) do not know any of this. They know that a dragon is attacking a town. Period. Even if the DM tells them that there is a keep in the middle of the town, how are they expected to get past a dragon to get to it?


In the MiG example, there is no way to safely get to the town. If the MiG pilot spots you, he kills you.

jayoungr said:

I think your DM should have mentioned the keep. According to the town map, it should be easily visible from the road. Do you think that would have changed your perspective on the situation?

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Nope. It does not change my perspective. The PCs have to get to the keep in order to be safe within the keep.

The description that I got were that there were creatures moving through the town, but that they were so small that we could not make out details. That means, townsfolks (who had not made it to the keep), or attackers. If the townsfolk are not yet safely in the keep, what makes a PC think that s/he can get safely there. If the creatures in the town are not townsfolk, then they are probably attackers who are between us and the keep. Either way, the odds of getting to the keep sound slim.


You seem to have difficulty distinguishing the difference between what the DM knows (based on what is written in the module) and what the players know.


You can try to justify this as a reasonable encounter, but sorry, there is nothing reasonable about a CR 16 or so Dragon against first level PCs. Yup. The module says that the Dragon will probably not attack the PCs, but the players do not know this. Hence, it looks 100% like suicide from the PC's (and player's) perspective.


Player 1: "Nope. Not going in there. Are you fricking kidding me? That's a dragon."
DM: "Listen. It's all good. Do you really think that the module is designed to kill off first level PCs? Trust me. It's ok. You can go into a town with an attacking dragon."


Btw, all of this is fine without the dragon.


This is like a money discussion in D&D. The merchant is going to give the 3rd level PCs 100 GP each to go do a task. How much is that? For some groups and some players, who cares? It's just treasure. It buys some stuff in the game and a second thought on it is not even made.

For someone like myself, 1 GP is about $100 (YMMV, but this works out fairly well for many items).

That means that the merchant is handing out $10,000 to each PC. Sometimes, this is up front money. Who the heck hands out $10,000 up front to someone for a job? I view the game from the PC's perspective of "this is a LOT of money", not from the player's perspective of "100 GP? Good, I can learn a new first level spell and get one potion of healing". To the player, it's small potatoes. Something to write down on the character sheet. But I use the PC's POV where that much money is a big dot deal for wet behind the ears 3rd level PCs. Why is the merchant willing to fork over so much money? What's going on?


Not every player just goes "shrug, that's the adventure the DM has set up, let's go".

You could start the PCs off in the town when it is attacked. The PCs get woken up at or are in the tavern or something.

Umm, I was under the impression that if the pc's just take cover, eventually the dragon leaves after dealing damage to the town.

IOW the pc's are in no way obligated to fight the dragon. The adventure will proceed regardless although it will impact the NPC's reactions to the PCs.

Are the pc's required to fight the dragon?

Hussar said:

Umm, I was under the impression that if the pc's just take cover, eventually the dragon leaves after dealing damage to the town.

IOW the pc's are in no way obligated to fight the dragon. The adventure will proceed regardless although it will impact the NPC's reactions to the PCs.

Are the pc's required to fight the dragon?

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Not really clear… but hilariously the bounded accuracy rules bit the writers. Friendly NPCs explicitly fail to achieve anything against the dragon because if they were actually allowed to attack it for real, they stand a good chance of taking it down. The players presumably aren't told this little bit of bounded-accuracy-for-thee-but-not-for-me, so could waste their time trying to rally the keep's defenders.

Part of the problem is that the adventure is incredibly inconsistent. You ARE supposed to charge into a town being sacked, you ARE supposed to emerge from the keep to fight a dragon, you AREN'T supposed to emerge from the keep to fight the half-dragon, you ARE supposed to assume that you can (for some reason) infiltrate an enemy military camp, you AREN'T supposed to assume that using an NPC's clothes would help you infiltrate the enemy organization.

The production values are also low (that map thing is just… ugh), and everywhere you look there are issues. Wizard PCs will be infuriated. NPC wizards appear to live without their spellbooks, for example.