[3.5E] Two Weapon Fighting vs. Multiweapon Fighting!

Knightfall · Feb 17, 2003

Ok, I'm confused.

I'm trying to figure out how the basic two-weapon fighting works in 3.5. Here's what I have so far from Chris Thomasson's post about Kazmojen, the Web Enhancement for Life's Bazaar, and information gleaned from Savage Species.

Here's Kazmojen's corrected Atk stats from the Life's Bazaar adventure in Dungeon #97, along with anything that may affect his attacks.

Atk: +10 melee (1d8+9/x3; masterwork dwarven urgrosh axe), or +6 melee (1d8+7/x3, masterwork dwarven urgrosh axe) and +2 melee (1d6+4/x3, masterwork dwarven urgrosh spear), or +9 melee (1d6+5, bite) and +4 melee (1d4+2, 2 clawed gauntlets), or +5 ranged (1d6, throwing axe)

Medium-Sized Giant (?): I think that's a mistake. More than likely it should have beeen Large Giant, which would mean the following: -1 AC/Attack Modifier.
BAB: +4
Str: 20 (+5)
Weapon Focus (dwarven urgrosh): +1 to all attack rolls
Masterwork dwarven urgrosh: +1 to attack rolls
Weapon Familiarity: Treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons.
NO Two Weapon Fighting or Ambidexterity feats

For the urgosh by itself: +10 melee (-1 size, +4 Ftr, +5 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork) *Simple*

For the urgosh as a double weapon: +6 melee (?) [axe side] (-1 size, +5 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork, -4 second weapon is light) *Would be +2 in 3E*

AND +2 melee (?) [spear side] (-1 size, +5 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork, -8 second weapon is light) *Would be -2 in 3E*

In reality, there is only a -4 to the urgosh for the first attack and a -8 for the second attack. This would be the same as if Kazmojen had Two Weapon Fighting, which he doesn't. Now, the penalty that applies to a double weapon is as if you were attacking with a light weapon. Thus, it should be as I've listed above in bold.

So the question becomes, where did the extra +4 come from. Now, some have said they think it comes from the half-troll template but I'm not buying that. Here's my reasoning:

For the bite attack with his clawed gauntlet(s): +9 melee [bite] (+4 Ftr, +5 Str)

AND +4 melee [clawed guantlets] (+4 Ftr, +5 str, -5 to secondary natural attack)

If there was a +4 bonus for being a half troll it would be +13 melee (bite) and +8 melee (clawed gauntlets). Note that attacking with gauntlets is considered an unarmed attack (PHB pg 100).

Thus, the plus four has to come from somewhere. But where you ask? i'm still trying to figure that out... give me a minute.

{Browsing through Savage Species feats chapter}...

Two important factor regarding Improved Multiweapon Fighting and Greater Multiweapon Fighting.

Improved: This feat replaces the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms. (Same as originally listed in MM and MM II.)

Greater: This feat replaces the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat (originally presented in Masters of the Wild) for creatures with more than two arms.

Now these two feats are linked, of course. You need Improved Multiweapon Fighting before being able to get the Greater version. Both also require Multidexterity and Multiweapon Fighting from the Monster Manual, a high Dex & BAB, and three arms.

Now the question becomes, do Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting still exist in 3.5E? Of course they do. (And will Greater Two-Weapon Fighting be in the PHB? After all, Savage Species refers to it being originally in Masters of the Wild.

)

And is Ambidexterity still a feat in 3.5E? Savage Species refers to Multidexterity for Monstrous PCs so why would they dump Ambidexterity for PHB PCs?

Hmm...

But what about that unknown +4 bonus?

Next. I'm going to move on to the Web Enhancement for the 3.5E Adventure, Life's Bazaar!

Meerthan doesn't list any Atks as if fighting with two weapons, either he uses his masterwork dagger or a ranged touch attack (magic). At the end of the web enhancement, Pyllrak Shyratt has three natural attacks with the standard -5 penalty for his second and third attacks.

Just took a look at the Dread Guard construct. Here's its Attacks for its masterwork gnome hooked hammer: +4 melee (1d4+3/x4, masterwork hook), +0 melee (1d6+1/x3, masterwork hammer).

Ok, a four point difference and it's attacking with a weapon. It's got 4HD, it's small-sized and no skills or feats. Thus, why doesn't it have lower attack scores? Opinions? NOTE: This is a variant of the standard medium-sized Dread Guard listed in MM II (which attacks with a longsword and has 5HD), pg 87.

(The Automations, Raggamoffyn, and Grell entries aren't any help when it comes to Two-Weapon Fighting in 3.5E.)

So can anyone shed some light on this matter or think of any other possible ideas? (It's late where I am and I've lost my stamina for this.)

Later and goodnight,

KF72 (yawn)

Olgar Shiverstone · Feb 17, 2003

In reality, there is only a -4 to the urgosh for the first attack and a -8 for the second attack. This would be the same as if Kazmojen had Two Weapon Fighting, which he doesn't. Now, the penalty that applies to a double weapon is as if you were attacking with a light weapon. Thus, it should be as I've listed above in bold.

I'd guess they goofed again. In the original article, this NPC HAD Two-Weapon Fighting, but not Ambidexterity. Perhaps they just left off the feat in the correction by accident.

Cassander · Feb 17, 2003

Olgar: I don't have the magazine right here, but I I have studied these statblocks quite a bit and can tell you that Kazmojen did NOT have Two-Weapon Fighting or Ambidexterity in the original version. A diffrent character in the magazine had two-weapon fighting, but not Kazmojen.

Now on to Knightfall's calculations...

Knightfall1972 said:
Ok, I'm confused.

I'm trying to figure out how the basic two-weapon fighting works in 3.5. Here's what I have so far from Chris Thomasson's post about Kazmojen, the Web Enhancement for Life's Bazaar, and information gleaned from Savage Species.

Here's Kazmojen's corrected Atk stats from the Life's Bazaar adventure in Dungeon #97, along with anything that may affect his attacks.

Atk: +10 melee (1d8+9/x3; masterwork dwarven urgrosh axe), or +6 melee (1d8+7/x3, masterwork dwarven urgrosh axe) and +2 melee (1d6+4/x3, masterwork dwarven urgrosh spear), or +9 melee (1d6+5, bite) and +4 melee (1d4+2, 2 clawed gauntlets), or +5 ranged (1d6, throwing axe)

Medium-Sized Giant (?): I think that's a mistake. More than likely it should have beeen Large Giant, which would mean the following: -1 AC/Attack Modifier.

I'm not so sure it's a mistake.. it could be that they forgot to add in both the +1 from weapon focus and the +1 from masterwork. Why would he need improved reach if he was in fact large? In either case, it doesnt much matter for the case at hand...

BAB: +4
Str: 20 (+5)
Weapon Focus (dwarven urgrosh): +1 to all attack rolls
Masterwork dwarven urgrosh: +1 to attack rolls
Weapon Familiarity: Treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons.
NO Two Weapon Fighting or Ambidexterity feats

For the urgosh by itself: +10 melee (-1 size, +4 Ftr, +5 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork) *Simple*

For the urgosh as a double weapon: +6 melee (?) [axe side] (-1 size, +5 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork, -4 second weapon is light) *Would be +2 in 3E*

AND +2 melee (?) [spear side] (-1 size, +5 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork, -8 second weapon is light) *Would be -2 in 3E*

You forgot to add in his +4 BAB in the urgosh as a double weapon examples. It should be:

+6 melee [axe-side] (-1 size, +5 Str, +4 BAB, +1 Weapon focus, +1 Masterwork, -4 second weapon is light) *Same as in 3e*

AND

+2 melee [spear-side] (-1 size, +5 Str, +4 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 masterwork, -8 second weapon is light) *Same as in 3e*

In reality, there is only a -4 to the urgosh for the first attack and a -8 for the second attack. This would be the same as if Kazmojen had Two Weapon Fighting, which he doesn't. Now, the penalty that applies to a double weapon is as if you were attacking with a light weapon. Thus, it should be as I've listed above in bold.

Que? In 3e, without any feats, the natural penalties for attacking with two weapons, one of which is light, or a double-weapon is a -4 to one attack and -8 to the other. This is identical to the examples above.

So the question becomes, where did the extra +4 come from. Now, some have said they think it comes from the half-troll template but I'm not buying that. Here's my reasoning:

Who said that? I previously said Kazmojen probably gets a natural armor bonus from being a half-troll, but that's all.

For the bite attack with his clawed gauntlet(s): +9 melee [bite] (+4 Ftr, +5 Str)

AND +4 melee [clawed guantlets] (+4 Ftr, +5 str, -5 to secondary natural attack)

If there was a +4 bonus for being a half troll it would be +13 melee (bite) and +8 melee (clawed gauntlets). Note that attacking with gauntlets is considered an unarmed attack (PHB pg 100).

Thus, the plus four has to come from somewhere. But where you ask? i'm still trying to figure that out... give me a minute.

To answer your question again: The extra +4 bonus comes from Kaz's +4 BAB, from 4 levels of Fighter.

Knightfall · Feb 17, 2003

Olgar Shiverstone said:
I'd guess they goofed again. In the original article, this NPC HAD Two-Weapon Fighting, but not Ambidexterity. Perhaps they just left off the feat in the correction by accident.

Hmm, ok that makes sense. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Chris says.

However, here's another Two-Weapon Fighting tidbit to chew on from Savage Species. Just for FYI...

From Chapter 9: Advancing a Monster, page 110, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

The last four sentences read: "Most monsters are better off taking levels of ranger to gain the benefits. The exception is monsters that use double weapons. They should take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (necessary for all but the quarterstaff) and Two-Weapon Fighting as soon as they possibly can. Most benefit from the fighter class, since they can have both feats at first level."

Next up... deconstructing the attacks for the Desmodu.

Cheers!

KF72