Troublesome player/character

This is a semi-gripe about a player in my game group, and his character design choices.

Let me preface this by saying that we take turns as the DM, so while I am sometimes the DM, I don't have actual veto power over anything.

This player, who I'll call "M" since he isn't here to speak in his own defense, is one of those who plans twenty levels of development from level one. In practice he has about five characters who he recreates over and over again.

Now there's nothing wrong with planning ahead, but if you have a set-in-stone build in mind you have to be prepared for the possibility that your "ideal character" isn't going to work well in the game as it develops. A simple example: You decide to build a heavy fighter, full plate melee monster, then discover that half of the campaign is going o be swashbuckling adventure on the high seas, and that your full-plated character is good for little more than a boat anchor. Combat is frequently ranged, and agility/mobility are more valuable.

Another problem is that, according to the rules, prestige classes are at the discretion of the DM. You may flat out find that a key part of your "perfect character" isn't possible.

Now, getting back to specifics: This player loves PRCs with the Mettle class feature. His goal is always to combine that with Evasion, and a Feat that allows him to substitute one Save for all others. His goal, obviously, is to become immune to just about all savable spells.

His most recent foray into this is a Cleric advancing to Pious Templar.

Mechanically, the character meets the prerequisites. Story wise, not really. The class is described as those who are called to guard the temple, or in some cases to go and fieght the deity's enemies on their own turf.

His character is female and preportedly comes from a society where women aren't allowed to advance. Her deity is a mono-theistic one called Taiia who is true Neutral, with sects that worship her creator aspect, her destroyer aspect, her good aspect and her evil one. He wanted this deity because she has both War and Magic on her domain lists. Note I said "lists", as in plural. She has two separate domain lists, depending on which aspect the PC worships. War and Magic aren't on the same list.

So I asked how his character, who has never visited the temple (she'd be condemned for being a woman warrior) gained this appointment? He smiled semi-stupidly and shrugged.

I said that I presumed she was chosen by the deity, and that she was of the "Fight god's enemies on their own turf" type, and the player agreed. So I asked, in all innocence, who the goddess' enemies were?

He said, "All evil, of course." At which I pointed out that half of her worshipping clerics were Evil, and that she herself wasn't Good at all, but Neutral.

So the player said her enemies were the advancing army of evil we were supposed to be preparing for. (Main plot line in campaign.) I asked why, since their goals of destruction were very much what several of her sects were promoting?

I pointed out that, having read the write up of the goddess, her only "enemies" were the "false gods" and their followers. As in, any other power "falsely" claiming to be a deity (i.e. every other god from every other pantheon), and their clerics and champions.

I then pointed out that we had a Paladin of The Dagda (king of the Celtic deities) in our party, that we (including her) had received visions of Moregan (Celtic deity of war and death), received a visitation from the Thunderbird (the American Indian "god" of war and death), and had carried out missions for them.

In game, the Cleric has admired the strength and dedication of Sir Arthur (the Paladin), and has tried to model herself after him. (She can't actually go Lawful Good, since she has to have a Neutral in there someplace.)

So now, to live up to the duties of the new PRC, she should try to discredit her role model, and ultimately either convert or destroy him. She should also be outright hostile towards every Divine caster she meets, since there are no other followers of her deity outside of her section of Africa.

Again the player just smiles stupidly and shrugs. Not his problem. Only cares about the mechanics.

Our current DM was inclined to swat the character flat and make the player start from scratch, but he'd just build something else with the same mentality, and the next one would be worse, since it could be brought into existence at level, without any of the hurdles normally encountered in development.

You can't cure a power gamer by outpowering them. All you do is convince them that they need even more power, so they can face that "outpower" next time.

The next time the DM's hat comes to me, I plan to press these story issues with the player. If a character doesn't live up to the duties of a PRC I think they should face expulsion from it.

Comments welcome, of course.

Sounds like he's a heretic. What's the punishment for heresy in his church?

Cleric into Pious Templar isn't that great. So let me guess, M is just dipping to get Mettle? The lore of a PrC is just as important as seeing it through to the end. You're not just a cleric, you ARE a pious templar. Enforcing a multiclass restriction similar to a paladin's might be a bit too much, though. However, one thing at your disposal is that all of his abilities are being granted at the whim of his goddess. Gee, you're not out smiting the heathens and converting the masses? I'm thinking no spells for you, today.

It seems like M is just a problem player. Does the rest of the group feel the same way about his roll over role behavior? Because it may be time to just show him the door. "We've talked it over and we don't feel that your play style is suited for the campaign we want to run."

And, while a power gamer may not fear death there is one thing they do. Level drain.

Dandu said:

Sounds like he's a heretic. What's the punishment for heresy in his church?

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She isn't a Heretic yet. Give it a chance...

Grogg of the North said:

Cleric into Pious Templar isn't that great. So let me guess, M is just dipping to get Mettle?

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Yeah, that's pretty much the read I'm getting.

Grogg of the North said:

The lore of a PrC is just as important as seeing it through to the end. You're not just a cleric, you ARE a pious templar. Enforcing a multiclass restriction similar to a paladin's might be a bit too much, though. However, one thing at your disposal is that all of his abilities are being granted at the whim of his goddess. Gee, you're not out smiting the heathens and converting the masses? I'm thinking no spells for you, today.

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Yeah, I agree. I build for good story, he builds to be able to resist the unsubtle attempts by DM's to kill off his annoying and unbalanced characters. It will never occur to him that DM's would stop punishing his characters if they stopped being unbalanced and annoying. (He chortles and gloats when he can pull out some "I'm immune to that, and you didn't see it coming." trick.)

Grogg of the North said:

It seems like M is just a problem player. Does the rest of the group feel the same way about his roll over role behavior? Because it may be time to just show him the door. "We've talked it over and we don't feel that your play style is suited for the campaign we want to run."

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We should. We really should. While several of us are kind of hesitant to throw people out, if the vote actually came up I think his ejection would be almost unanimous.

Grogg of the North said:

And, while a power gamer may not fear death there is one thing they do. Level drain.

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He's running the Cleric, and can reverse it himself, I believe. I'll have to see.

The irony here would be that if he couldn't, it woud be a major violation of his/her code to seek a Restoration from any other cleric, She is, after all, the only Cleric of her god for a thousand miles, and the ones back home would condemn her for being a woman who has taken up as an adventurer. A woman's place is, after all, in the home.

Greenfield said:

This player, who I'll call "M" since he isn't here to speak in his own defense, is one of those who plans twenty levels of development from level one. In practice he has about five characters who he recreates over and over again.

Now there's nothing wrong with planning ahead, but if you have a set-in-stone build in mind you have to be prepared for the possibility that your "ideal character" isn't going to work well in the game as it develops.

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Nothing wrong with pre-building your character, but you really should consult with the DM beforehand to make sure you're picking the right one of your five for the game. Since the player failed to do that, you're not under any obligation to change the game to suit - if he's playing that "boat anchor" character, don't hesitate to sink his ship!

Another problem is that, according to the rules, prestige classes are at the discretion of the DM. You may flat out find that a key part of your "perfect character" isn't possible.

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Yep.

Now, getting back to specifics: This player loves PRCs with the Mettle class feature. His goal is always to combine that with Evasion, and a Feat that allows him to substitute one Save for all others. His goal, obviously, is to become immune to just about all savable spells.

His most recent foray into this is a Cleric advancing to Pious Templar.

Mechanically, the character meets the prerequisites. Story wise, not really. The class is described as those who are called to guard the temple, or in some cases to go and fieght the deity's enemies on their own turf.

His character is female and preportedly comes from a society where women aren't allowed to advance. Her deity is a mono-theistic one called Taiia who is true Neutral, with sects that worship her creator aspect, her destroyer aspect, her good aspect and her evil one. He wanted this deity because she has both War and Magic on her domain lists. Note I said "lists", as in plural. She has two separate domain lists, depending on which aspect the PC worships. War and Magic aren't on the same list.

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Am I imagining it, or have you posted about this character before? Because this sounds awfully familiar.

Anyway, when dealing with a Power Gamer, always be sure to apply all the rules. Which means that mixing the two lists is a no-no.

I don't actually have any problems with the rest of it. Well, beyond my usual prejudice against anything in 3.5e outside of the Core Rulebooks. But if those are the rules you're playing by, then he does seem to be following them.

So I asked how his character, who has never visited the temple (she'd be condemned for being a woman warrior) gained this appointment? He smiled semi-stupidly and shrugged.

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Story-wise, that's enough right there to veto the class. But if you're not in a position to veto the class (as you say above), I'm not entirely sure what to say.

... more story-based stuff...

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Honestly, a lot of this reads as you trying to badger the player into dropping his class, probably because he thinks he's found a rules exploit that he's going to use to wreck the game.

But it's seldom a good idea to try to fix mechanical issues with a story-based solution.

Question: if the player were playing a straight-up Cleric, would you be asking the same questions? Because such a character has all the same underlying story logic problems and is probably more problematic mechanically-speaking.

My advice, really, is to get together with the other DMs, and start applying the ban-hammer with gusto. If M has shown you a bunch of exploits, ban them.

Our current DM was inclined to swat the character flat and make the player start from scratch, but he'd just build something else with the same mentality, and the next one would be worse, since it could be brought into existence at level, without any of the hurdles normally encountered in development.

You can't cure a power gamer by outpowering them. All you do is convince them that they need even more power, so they can face that "outpower" next time.

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The player isn't going to get the hint, and the more you press the story issues the more you'll piss off your players (not just M). Either talk to him directly about the conflicting playstyles, or eject him from the group.

Greenfield said:

Yeah, I agree. I build for good story, he builds to be able to resist the unsubtle attempts by DM's to kill off his annoying and unbalanced characters.

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So stop.

Seriously, stop trying to kill his characters, and instead just don't engage him in his power game. Make sure to use a wide variety of opponents, and he'll discover the limits of his exploit anyway - he's invested an awful lot into getting immunity to all save-partial spells, but that leaves him relatively weak against melee opponents, ranged opponents, or no-save spells. So make sure you use those - not exclusively, but in proportion.

We should. We really should. While several of us are kind of hesitant to throw people out, if the vote actually came up I think his ejection would be almost unanimous.

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If that's the case, and he really is annoying the whole group, then just eject him. 90% of the enjoyment of these games comes from the other people around the table, so it's just not worth playing with people who make the game less fun for those around them.

I'm not trying to bully him into giving up the PRC. Short of a permanent level drain, there isn't a game mechanic that would allow it, and the player himself is shameless.

I'm also not trying to kill his characters. As I advised the current DM, it won't change anything. All it will do is give him an opportunity to do something worse.

The problem isn't the character.

According to one guy in the group who knows him, he uses a character generator (possibly Heroforge, but I'm not sure) that can be manipulated to come up with wrong bonuses for skills and/or Saves. According to this other player there's a flaw that if you do the creation steps out of order it miscalculates things, giving higher totals than it should.

And yes, I've mentioned this player and his character here before.

His current PC is of an aquatic race from Stormwrack. 60 foot swim speed, water breathing, and the +8 to swim checks that aquatic creatures normally have. She also wears full plate and uses a heavy shield. The player was trying to pass off the presumption that the character could simply swim like a fish, no checks needed. Armor Check penalties are doubled for Swim, so the -5 from master worked full plate (required for it to be magical) becomes -10. The -1 from a master worked heavy shield (again from master worked) becomes -2. 2 points of actual skill plus three Strength bonus plus the +8 racial mod gives the PC a total bonus of +1. According to the player, however, it was +6. Somehow his computer generated sheet had come up with 5 points of bonus he couldn't account for.

While the PC can "take 10" on swim checks, that doesn't meet the DC 15 for many aquatic maneuvers, a point the player prefers to gloss over or argue about.

***

Odd correction. I think we've been doing it wrong.

I just checked the SRD on Swim. Special maneuvers, such as Charge or Bull Rush, have a base DC of 15, and can be higher under adverse conditions. Aquatic creatures gain a +8 on swim checks for such special maneuvers or to avoid a hazard, according to the SRD.

That means they don't get that bonus all the time. Only when the "special maneuvers" modifier applies.

That all but cripples his character in the water. Our current adventure is under water.

While that inspires evil thoughts, the best thing is to talk to him and let him know that he'll have to make some adjustments to keep his aquatic speed.

Oh come on, again?

At this rate, you are going to be able to write a book.

Why, exactly, do you play with "M" again?

billd91 said:

Why, exactly, do you play with "M" again?

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Excellent question.

For the moment I'm looking at his PRC choice as a potential plot hook, nothing more. It will affect how Clerics of other gods treat the character, and how that character should deal with them.