Are hunters and trappers mutually exclusive? Hunter and huntsmen are the same thing, no?
Celebrim
Legend
I would think that 'trapping' would be a subset of Survival/Wilderness lore skills. In early editions it would be a NWP. In 3e I would consider it a variation on this: "DC 10: Get along in the wild. Move up to one-half the character's overland speed while hunting and foraging (no food or water supplies needed). The character can provide food and water for one other person for every 2 points by which the character's check result exceeds 10." I'd personally increase the DC to 15 because the hunter was looking not for game animals generally, but specifically for fur bearing animals. Beyond that, it's just a matter of having a string of mechanical traps to receive a bonus on the check (or using a craft skill to emulate that).
In 2e, you could use a 'hunter' and 'trapper' as kit classes of the ranger. I personally don't see a lot of reason to separate them, as especially before the invention of gunpowder there was almost no difference between the two. Even in Europe, deer were most commonly taken not by arrows but by the employment of snares - just as they were in North America in the same period. And bear were often hunted by the employment of deadfall traps.
As for me, I'm playing a variant of 3.0 edition, and I have Hunter as a core class (replacing Ranger, which in my opinion has too much baggage for a base class).
Hunter
The world is a dangerous place and only the strongest survive its trials. In nature, the weak are killed so that the strong may survive. At the top of every food chain are the hunters. The hunter knows its prey and its habits. The hunter chooses and stalks his prey. The hunter uses its wits to and skill to place itself in the most advantageous position. Then with quiet swiftness and ferocity, it deals the killing blow and ensures its own survival. The sentient races are at the top of every food chain, and they too are not with out hunters.
Adventurers: The ordinary hunter in a society typically specializes in the killing of animals to provide food and hides. But there are more dangerous sorts of game that often think of people as being prey. In every society there are a few individuals who specialize in hunting down and protecting against the depredations of these would be predators. Frequently, those called to such professions carry grudges against certain types of creatures and actively seek them out. All too often, members of a race turn against their own kind and must be captured or destroyed. Many magistrates and law enforcing beings are of the hunter class, as are often bounty hunters, assassins, and bandits.
Characteristics: The hunter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and capable in combat. He is particularly skilled with bows and other ranged weapons. His skills allow him to survive in many environments, to find his prey, and avoid detection. He also has special knowledge and understanding of certain types of creatures. This knowledge makes him more capable of finding and defeating those foes.
Alignment: Hunters can be of any alignment. Many have no particular philosophy on life except to earn themselves a living plying their trade. Good aligned hunters see themselves as the protectors and benefactors of the weak and innocent. They hunt to provide their families and comrades with food and clothing, and to destroy rabid or evil creatures which would hunt them. Lawful hunters see themselves as guardians of society and enforcers of the law. They are often specialists in hunting members of their own species as they track down lawbreakers in order to bring them to justice. Chaotic hunters often hunt for the thrill of the hunt, ranging far and wide in the hopes of finding new and exciting experiences, and new and more dangerous game. Evil hunters see themselves as predators that prove their innate superiority through killing, or who improve the breed by culling away the weak. Often they specialize in hunting others of their own kind, and become feared assassins or rampaging serial murderers.
Religion: Although many give their loyalties or at least some service to patrons of the hunt, hunters can have almost any sort of religious belief depending on their personality and character. For many hunters, their vocation is merely a profession, not a calling and as such their worship and adoration can be given to almost any deity.
Background: The profession of hunting is almost always learned through a mentor, often beginning at a very early age. In most cases, this mentor is a parent or guardian, but some societies may have guilds of hunters which recruit apprentices. More advanced societies may have many specialist guilds and professions, each teaching the skill of hunting a particular type of game or foe. Magistrates of various types may exist under a variety of names – constable, sheriff, reeve, watchman, guardsman, and many others – and older magistrates may teach the skill of tracking criminals to novices, or possibly even special academies will exist for training these skills. Primitive tribal societies may be largely composed of hunters which they rely upon to provide food. More advanced military units often train hunters in the role of specialized scouts or commandos. Organized crime syndicates may employ hunters as thugs and hit men, and their may even be well organized and secretive guilds or clans of assassins in some societies. And there are many other paths to becoming a hunter. In short, the class of hunter is one of the most varied roles which a character can have.
Races: All races have hunters, especially those living in the remote and more wilderness regions. Elves in particular are legendary hunters, since their natural skill with the bow, keen senses, and great agility complements the methods of the hunter. In fact, a large percentage of the elfin warrior class is actually composed not of fighters but of hunters.
Classes: Hunters seldom have conflicts with a particular class, but benefit with association with all of them. Most often their strongest disagreement is unexpectedly with fighters whose approach to combat they often find too unstealthy and straightforward. Conversely, Hunters often get along quite well with stealthy Rogues and multi-classed Hunter/Rogues are not at all uncommon. Hunters also get along well with Explorers, and often share much the same outlook on life if not necessarily the same goals. Multi-classed Hunter/Explorers are also quite common. In some cultures there are often secretive traditions of Hunter/Shamans, who form deep relationships with the creatures that they hunt and sometimes protect.
Table: The Hunter
Level BAB Fort
Save Ref
Save Will Save Special
1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Track, 1st Favored Enemy
2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Bonus Feat
3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Lethality +1
4 +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus Feat
5 +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd Favored Enemy
6 +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Sure Shot (+30)
7 +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Lethality +2
8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Bonus Feat
9 +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Strike Vitals +1d8
10 +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 3rd Favored Enemy
11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Lethality +3
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus Feat, Sure Shot (+60)
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Camouflage
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Strike Vitals +2d8
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 4th Favored Enemy, Lethality +4
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Bonus Feat
17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Hide in Plain Sight
18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Sure Shot (+90)
19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Lethality +5, Strike Vitals +3d8
20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 5th Favored Enemy, Bonus Feat
GAME RULE INFORMATION
Hunters have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Dexterity is important for a hunter because hunters tend to wear light armor and because several hunter skills are based on dexterity. Also, the hunter’s bonus feat selection favors ranged combat. Strength is important because hunters are often forced to engage in melee combat, and also need to be able to carry large amounts of equipment and their trophy with ease. Several hunter skills are based on wisdom, and a high intelligence will make the best use of a hunter’s diverse skill list.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements: Dexterity 7 and Strength 7
Class Skills
The hunter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (str), Craft (int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal(Wis), Hide(Dex), Navigation (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nature)(int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Porter (Str), Ride (Dex), Run (Str), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st level: (7 + int modifier) x 4
Skill Points: 7 + Int modifier
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A hunter is proficient with all simple and marital weapons, light and medium armor and shields.
Track: A hunter gains Track as a bonus feat.
Favored Enemy: At 1st level, a hunter may select a type of creature as a favored enemy. Due to his extensive study of his foes and training in the proper techniques for combating them, the hunter gains a +1 bonus to bluff, intimidate, listen, sense motive, spot, and survival checks when using these skills against this type of creature. Likewise, he gets the same bonus to weapon damage rolls against creatures of this type. A hunter also gets the damage bonus with ranged weapons, but only against targets within 30 feet (the hunter cannot initially strike with deadly accuracy beyond that range). Additionally, by applying secret lore, their keen senses and knowledge or their prey, hunters may make critical hits on their favored enemy even if favored enemies of that class – such as undead, oozes or constructs – are normally immune to critical hits.
At 5th level and at every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the hunter may select a new favored enemy, and the bonus associated with every previously selected favored enemy goes up by +1. For example, a 15th level hunter will have four favored enemies, with bonuses of +4, +3, +2, and +1.
Table 1-2: Hunter Favored Enemies lists possible categories for a hunter’s favored enemy.
Table 1-2: Hunter Favored Enemies
Type Examples
Aberrations Beholders
Animals Bears
Beasts Owlbears
Constructs Golems
Dragons Black dragons
Elementals Xorns
Fey Dryads
Giants Ogres
Humanoid Type* Goblinoids, Humans, Lizardfolk, Elves, etc.
Magical beasts Displacer beasts
Oozes Gelatinous cubes
Outsider Type* Genie, Celestials, Infernals, Abominations, etc.
Plants Shambling mounds
Shapechangers Werewolves
Undead Zombies
Vermin Giant Spiders
*Hunters may not select “humanoid” or “outsider” as a favored enemy, but they may select a more narrowly defined type of humanoid or outsider.
Bonus Feat: At 2nd level, 4th level, and every 4th level thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th and 20th), Hunters gain a bonus virtual feat. These feats are only effective while the Hunter has an armor check penalty no worse than -4. Hunters may use these virtual feats as perquisites for regular feats, but if circumstances cause the hunter to no longer be qualified for their virtual feat, then they will no longer be qualified for and have access to any feat which depends on them either. The bonus virtual feat can be chosen from any on the following list which they meet the requirements for: Alertness, Big Game Hunter, Blind-Fight, Combat Intuition, Combat Reflexes, Dead eye, Death Blow, Dodge, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Expert Tactician, Far Shot, Full Fisted, Great Fortitude, Hunter’s Instincts, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Mounted Combat, Mugger, One Shot One Kill, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Run, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Sniper, Spring Attack, Stone Cold Killer, Swift Tracker, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Zeal.
Lethality: At 3rd level, whenever the hunter provokes a traumatic damage save, the DC of the traumatic damage save is increased by +1. Every four levels thereafter, the DC increases by an additional one. Additionally, when a hunter’s attack reduces a target below 0 hit points, the difficulty of the Fortitude save for the creature to remain conscious is increased by a like amount.
Sure Shot: At 6th level, a hunter gains such skill with ranged weapons that they are able to make precise shots an additional 30 feet further than normal. This allows them to inflict damage otherwise restricted to shots made within 30’ out to 60’. Damage in this category includes damage from the point blank shot feat, sneak attack damage, and the bonus damage to the hunter’s favored enemies. At 12th level the maximum range extends to 90 feet, and at 18th level the maximum range extends to 120 feet.
Strike Vitals: At 9th level, a hunter gains such accuracy with his attacks, that when he scores a critical hit, he does an additional 1d8 bonus damage. This bonus rises to 2d8 at 14th level, and 3d8 at 19th level.
Camouflage (Ex): A hunter of 13th level or higher always treats the available concealment of a terrain as being one step better. Even if the terrain doesn’t grant any cover or concealment, the hunter may still attempt to hide as if the terrain granted minimal concealment necessary to hide.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A hunter of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.
In 2e, you could use a 'hunter' and 'trapper' as kit classes of the ranger. I personally don't see a lot of reason to separate them, as especially before the invention of gunpowder there was almost no difference between the two. Even in Europe, deer were most commonly taken not by arrows but by the employment of snares - just as they were in North America in the same period. And bear were often hunted by the employment of deadfall traps.
As for me, I'm playing a variant of 3.0 edition, and I have Hunter as a core class (replacing Ranger, which in my opinion has too much baggage for a base class).
Hunter
The world is a dangerous place and only the strongest survive its trials. In nature, the weak are killed so that the strong may survive. At the top of every food chain are the hunters. The hunter knows its prey and its habits. The hunter chooses and stalks his prey. The hunter uses its wits to and skill to place itself in the most advantageous position. Then with quiet swiftness and ferocity, it deals the killing blow and ensures its own survival. The sentient races are at the top of every food chain, and they too are not with out hunters.
Adventurers: The ordinary hunter in a society typically specializes in the killing of animals to provide food and hides. But there are more dangerous sorts of game that often think of people as being prey. In every society there are a few individuals who specialize in hunting down and protecting against the depredations of these would be predators. Frequently, those called to such professions carry grudges against certain types of creatures and actively seek them out. All too often, members of a race turn against their own kind and must be captured or destroyed. Many magistrates and law enforcing beings are of the hunter class, as are often bounty hunters, assassins, and bandits.
Characteristics: The hunter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and capable in combat. He is particularly skilled with bows and other ranged weapons. His skills allow him to survive in many environments, to find his prey, and avoid detection. He also has special knowledge and understanding of certain types of creatures. This knowledge makes him more capable of finding and defeating those foes.
Alignment: Hunters can be of any alignment. Many have no particular philosophy on life except to earn themselves a living plying their trade. Good aligned hunters see themselves as the protectors and benefactors of the weak and innocent. They hunt to provide their families and comrades with food and clothing, and to destroy rabid or evil creatures which would hunt them. Lawful hunters see themselves as guardians of society and enforcers of the law. They are often specialists in hunting members of their own species as they track down lawbreakers in order to bring them to justice. Chaotic hunters often hunt for the thrill of the hunt, ranging far and wide in the hopes of finding new and exciting experiences, and new and more dangerous game. Evil hunters see themselves as predators that prove their innate superiority through killing, or who improve the breed by culling away the weak. Often they specialize in hunting others of their own kind, and become feared assassins or rampaging serial murderers.
Religion: Although many give their loyalties or at least some service to patrons of the hunt, hunters can have almost any sort of religious belief depending on their personality and character. For many hunters, their vocation is merely a profession, not a calling and as such their worship and adoration can be given to almost any deity.
Background: The profession of hunting is almost always learned through a mentor, often beginning at a very early age. In most cases, this mentor is a parent or guardian, but some societies may have guilds of hunters which recruit apprentices. More advanced societies may have many specialist guilds and professions, each teaching the skill of hunting a particular type of game or foe. Magistrates of various types may exist under a variety of names – constable, sheriff, reeve, watchman, guardsman, and many others – and older magistrates may teach the skill of tracking criminals to novices, or possibly even special academies will exist for training these skills. Primitive tribal societies may be largely composed of hunters which they rely upon to provide food. More advanced military units often train hunters in the role of specialized scouts or commandos. Organized crime syndicates may employ hunters as thugs and hit men, and their may even be well organized and secretive guilds or clans of assassins in some societies. And there are many other paths to becoming a hunter. In short, the class of hunter is one of the most varied roles which a character can have.
Races: All races have hunters, especially those living in the remote and more wilderness regions. Elves in particular are legendary hunters, since their natural skill with the bow, keen senses, and great agility complements the methods of the hunter. In fact, a large percentage of the elfin warrior class is actually composed not of fighters but of hunters.
Classes: Hunters seldom have conflicts with a particular class, but benefit with association with all of them. Most often their strongest disagreement is unexpectedly with fighters whose approach to combat they often find too unstealthy and straightforward. Conversely, Hunters often get along quite well with stealthy Rogues and multi-classed Hunter/Rogues are not at all uncommon. Hunters also get along well with Explorers, and often share much the same outlook on life if not necessarily the same goals. Multi-classed Hunter/Explorers are also quite common. In some cultures there are often secretive traditions of Hunter/Shamans, who form deep relationships with the creatures that they hunt and sometimes protect.
Table: The Hunter
Level BAB Fort
Save Ref
Save Will Save Special
1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Track, 1st Favored Enemy
2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Bonus Feat
3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Lethality +1
4 +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus Feat
5 +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd Favored Enemy
6 +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Sure Shot (+30)
7 +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Lethality +2
8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Bonus Feat
9 +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Strike Vitals +1d8
10 +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 3rd Favored Enemy
11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Lethality +3
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus Feat, Sure Shot (+60)
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Camouflage
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Strike Vitals +2d8
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 4th Favored Enemy, Lethality +4
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Bonus Feat
17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Hide in Plain Sight
18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Sure Shot (+90)
19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Lethality +5, Strike Vitals +3d8
20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 5th Favored Enemy, Bonus Feat
GAME RULE INFORMATION
Hunters have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Dexterity is important for a hunter because hunters tend to wear light armor and because several hunter skills are based on dexterity. Also, the hunter’s bonus feat selection favors ranged combat. Strength is important because hunters are often forced to engage in melee combat, and also need to be able to carry large amounts of equipment and their trophy with ease. Several hunter skills are based on wisdom, and a high intelligence will make the best use of a hunter’s diverse skill list.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements: Dexterity 7 and Strength 7
Class Skills
The hunter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (str), Craft (int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal(Wis), Hide(Dex), Navigation (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nature)(int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Porter (Str), Ride (Dex), Run (Str), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st level: (7 + int modifier) x 4
Skill Points: 7 + Int modifier
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A hunter is proficient with all simple and marital weapons, light and medium armor and shields.
Track: A hunter gains Track as a bonus feat.
Favored Enemy: At 1st level, a hunter may select a type of creature as a favored enemy. Due to his extensive study of his foes and training in the proper techniques for combating them, the hunter gains a +1 bonus to bluff, intimidate, listen, sense motive, spot, and survival checks when using these skills against this type of creature. Likewise, he gets the same bonus to weapon damage rolls against creatures of this type. A hunter also gets the damage bonus with ranged weapons, but only against targets within 30 feet (the hunter cannot initially strike with deadly accuracy beyond that range). Additionally, by applying secret lore, their keen senses and knowledge or their prey, hunters may make critical hits on their favored enemy even if favored enemies of that class – such as undead, oozes or constructs – are normally immune to critical hits.
At 5th level and at every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the hunter may select a new favored enemy, and the bonus associated with every previously selected favored enemy goes up by +1. For example, a 15th level hunter will have four favored enemies, with bonuses of +4, +3, +2, and +1.
Table 1-2: Hunter Favored Enemies lists possible categories for a hunter’s favored enemy.
Table 1-2: Hunter Favored Enemies
Type Examples
Aberrations Beholders
Animals Bears
Beasts Owlbears
Constructs Golems
Dragons Black dragons
Elementals Xorns
Fey Dryads
Giants Ogres
Humanoid Type* Goblinoids, Humans, Lizardfolk, Elves, etc.
Magical beasts Displacer beasts
Oozes Gelatinous cubes
Outsider Type* Genie, Celestials, Infernals, Abominations, etc.
Plants Shambling mounds
Shapechangers Werewolves
Undead Zombies
Vermin Giant Spiders
*Hunters may not select “humanoid” or “outsider” as a favored enemy, but they may select a more narrowly defined type of humanoid or outsider.
Bonus Feat: At 2nd level, 4th level, and every 4th level thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th and 20th), Hunters gain a bonus virtual feat. These feats are only effective while the Hunter has an armor check penalty no worse than -4. Hunters may use these virtual feats as perquisites for regular feats, but if circumstances cause the hunter to no longer be qualified for their virtual feat, then they will no longer be qualified for and have access to any feat which depends on them either. The bonus virtual feat can be chosen from any on the following list which they meet the requirements for: Alertness, Big Game Hunter, Blind-Fight, Combat Intuition, Combat Reflexes, Dead eye, Death Blow, Dodge, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Expert Tactician, Far Shot, Full Fisted, Great Fortitude, Hunter’s Instincts, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Mounted Combat, Mugger, One Shot One Kill, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Run, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Sniper, Spring Attack, Stone Cold Killer, Swift Tracker, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Zeal.
Lethality: At 3rd level, whenever the hunter provokes a traumatic damage save, the DC of the traumatic damage save is increased by +1. Every four levels thereafter, the DC increases by an additional one. Additionally, when a hunter’s attack reduces a target below 0 hit points, the difficulty of the Fortitude save for the creature to remain conscious is increased by a like amount.
Sure Shot: At 6th level, a hunter gains such skill with ranged weapons that they are able to make precise shots an additional 30 feet further than normal. This allows them to inflict damage otherwise restricted to shots made within 30’ out to 60’. Damage in this category includes damage from the point blank shot feat, sneak attack damage, and the bonus damage to the hunter’s favored enemies. At 12th level the maximum range extends to 90 feet, and at 18th level the maximum range extends to 120 feet.
Strike Vitals: At 9th level, a hunter gains such accuracy with his attacks, that when he scores a critical hit, he does an additional 1d8 bonus damage. This bonus rises to 2d8 at 14th level, and 3d8 at 19th level.
Camouflage (Ex): A hunter of 13th level or higher always treats the available concealment of a terrain as being one step better. Even if the terrain doesn’t grant any cover or concealment, the hunter may still attempt to hide as if the terrain granted minimal concealment necessary to hide.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A hunter of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.
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delericho
Legend
Depends on how much detail you want, but I'd almost certainly combine the two into a single class - it already seems a fairly small niche, so does it need two distinct classes to cover it? Perhaps make 'trapper' a subclass?
GMMichael
Guide of Modos
I'd use a fighter.
Back when there were what, four classes, it was pretty much a given that whatever you wanted to be in-game had to be represented somehow by one of the four classes. Classes were not, in my rose-colored glasses, supposed to be the limit of what your character could be. The point is that you don't need a specific class to be a hunter/trapper. Heck, a wizard could be a hunter.
Design-wise, classes are a way to ensure that characters of similar level have a similar amount of potency. The proliferation of different classes is really just an unconscious cry for point-buy system/characters. So design yourself a trapper, but know that the gods of character balance are watching closely over your shoulder.
Back when there were what, four classes, it was pretty much a given that whatever you wanted to be in-game had to be represented somehow by one of the four classes. Classes were not, in my rose-colored glasses, supposed to be the limit of what your character could be. The point is that you don't need a specific class to be a hunter/trapper. Heck, a wizard could be a hunter.
Design-wise, classes are a way to ensure that characters of similar level have a similar amount of potency. The proliferation of different classes is really just an unconscious cry for point-buy system/characters. So design yourself a trapper, but know that the gods of character balance are watching closely over your shoulder.
Celebrim
Legend
A fighter certainly could be a hunter. As could, as you say a wizard or a thief.
I partially agree, in as much as I think having more than at most 12-15 classes in a class based system suggests that the underlying problem is your classes are badly designed and too inflexible. But I don't agree that it was ever a given that the original set of classes represented anything anyone could want to be in game. Indeed, I think the opposite was true. It was pretty much a given right from the moment people started wanting to be a someone rather than a piece in a tactical wargame, that the original base classes had not spent enough time defining either 'who you are' or 'what you could do'. This was manifested in all sorts of ways, with a proliferation of classes in Dragon magazine sort of incoherently attempting to address one question or the other, or people breaking off of D&D at a very early point to create games like C&S that explicitly attempted to fix the problem.
I don't think this was immediately realized, and if you'd asked someone in 1977 the purpose of classes I don't think they could have easily articulated that. They probably would have said that the purpose of classes was to define your role, and in saying so would have completely justified the need for a 'Hunter' class and a 'Trapper' class because the concept of a profession and a class and their relation hadn't really been separated or clarified. So in early D&D you see concept classes - a fighter - get mixed up with profession classes - an assassin - and no one really articulates the differences much until 2e comes around and people start saying things like, "Heck, a wizard could be an assassin."
I just cut and pasted the entire class from my house rules, but I in no way claim that outside the context of my house rules and my campaign the class in any way balanced. Inside my campaign, I can prove by example that the class is fair and interesting and shares sufficient spotlight to be called balanced, with examples of characters being built with dips into hunter (primarily to get the benefit of "Additionally, by applying secret lore, their keen senses and knowledge or their prey, hunters may make critical hits on their favored enemy even if favored enemies of that class – such as undead, oozes or constructs – are normally immune to critical hits.") and players building single classed hunters to create optimized ranged attack/skill monkeys.
And in any event, I don't really think that proliferation of classes is necessarily driven by the desire to be more point buy like in your build. In fact, I'd say the reverse is more likely to be true. The smaller the number of classes that you have, the more flexible they have to be and the more point buy like elements that implies - a buffet of abilities is not that different from point buy in its flexibility while still constraining you against the one trick pony approach point buy tends to encourage. A modern three class approach (warrior, spellcaster, expert), would make building each class very much like point buy, in as much that each class would not define exactly what the character would do but let you choose from a broad array of in flavor abilities.
A buffet of classes, particularly without 3e style multiclassing, is very unlike point buy in that you are likely to be locked into a specific single build and progression of powers if you have large numbers of classes. If you look at the state of class development in late 1e, it's definitely nothing like point buy. The prestige class approach seems intended to lock characters into a stereotype, but in practice by late 3.5 merged into the buffet of abilities approach because everyone was dipping 1-2 levels into 4-5 classes to get very specific ability synergies. But I think that was specific to the 3e design rather than a general attribute of large numbers of classes, since in most games you can only take one class and you have to stick to it. Its that inflexibility that I think really drives the proliferation of classes. For me, it feels like some number more than 5 and some number less than 20 is necessary to both tightly define the concepts yet leave them flexible enough that any two members of the same class are not mechanically identical but have a niche of their own that is more than flavor or self-imposed restriction.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
I look forward to the complementary Gatherer class.
GMMichael
Guide of Modos
Well said, C. But you've misunderstood me in one or two places:
Consider: if you have limited options (say 4), it's quite possible that no class aligns well with your concept, and you feel no customization as you would if you were using a point-buy system.
I didn't say that the classes actually represented anything (you wanted to be). I said that the original classes were required to represent anything, simply because there were no other options.
This is an assumption which we don't share.
Granted. But before a player chooses his class from the buffet, he has an idea of what he wants his character to be. He then eliminates choices (classes) if they stray too far from his concept, in order to choose the class that follows his concept the closest. So, what's the difference between choosing the closest class to your concept, and choosing the points to buy that align with your concept?
Consider: if you have limited options (say 4), it's quite possible that no class aligns well with your concept, and you feel no customization as you would if you were using a point-buy system.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
OK, I'm operating under a couple assumptions.
a, you want to build a class. Cool, I won't miss the point by suggesting ways the system can be jury rigged to accommodate you.
2, You probably don't think the Hunter that you want works as an existing class, or you wouldn't have made this thread. Got it, I'm generally a fan of new classes, rather than trying to wedge together and fiddle with multiclassing and all that. IMO, build mechanics specifically to represent a concept, and that concept will be better represented than trying to fiddle around with mechanics made to do other things, and force them to do a different thing.
So, unless one or both of those assumptions is wrong, my advice to you:
Two good options here, and trapper and hunter end up in the same class either way.
a, hack the ranger. Replace the spellcasting with some limited trap making, along with perhaps some herbalism stuff, maybe some nonlethal poison-like stuff and some ingredient based healing? I can come up with some better ideas along those lines if you want, but I'm working the next few days, so it won't be quick.
Anyway, make the trapper a subclass, expand on the trapmaking system developed for the base class, making the trapper an expert, able to rig up simple but deadly traps as an action, and complex and/or large traps in ritual scale time.
I'd also consider making the ranger's beast companion thing part of the base class, making it easier to cut out spellcasting without nerfing the class, and spend less time on rebuilding the class.
2, Build a new class, called Hunter. Give it an Ambusher, a Trapper and possibly a third subclass. You could make the Hunter base abilities center around Trapping, but I'd take a look at my Assassin base class, and consider shamelessing stealing the "Careful Planning" and "Ghost of the Rooftops" abilities, and reword them to evoke wilderness primarily, instead of cities, too.
Either way you go, or a third way, or whatever, I definitely recommend trapper as a type of hunter.
Celebrim
Legend
You could certainly do that, but I think the first thing you'd need to do was create clear and complete rules for trapping game and creating traps using skills like Survival/Wilderness Lore/Craft (Traps).
Only then could you have a class that enhanced how the character performed as a trapper.
Honestly, for my purposes I think everything I could give to a trapper could be in a single feat that had say 5 ranks in Craft (traps) and 5 ranks in Wilderness Lore as a prerequisite. There isn't in my opinion enough breadth of utility to justify a whole 10 level prestige class for Trapper, but you might could get a 3 or 5 level class out of it if you wanted to go that way.
Things an elite trapper could do:
a) Craft traps in a wilderness setting without special tools using only naturally occurring items with no penalty, provided the player can reasonably describe a material that might be present and how it can be used to create a simple trap. Explicitly call out examples of things that are reasonable - snares made of jungle vines, caltrops made of sharpened sticks or pieces of cacti, bent saplings to make spike traps, pit traps disguised by with a thin layer natural material (ice, snow, vegetation, etc).
b) Craft traps in 1/2 the normal time.
c) Crafted traps have +2 DC to detect above the normal DC set by the skill check (or +1 per class level in the case of a PrC).
d) Crafted traps have +2 DC to evade above the normal DC set by the skill check (or +1 per class level in the case of a PrC).
e) Crafted traps do +1 damage per dice (or have advantage on damage in 5e, or +1d6 bonus damage per class level in the case of a PrC in 3e).
Personally, again, I'd consider all the above something you could bundle into a single feat - 'Master Trapper'. But if you want to go the PrC route, it's doable. Just have all the above first level abilities, and scale them up as suggested as you increase in class levels.
Depending on your tolerance of gamist elements, you could give the PrC some gamist abilities at higher levels like, "Trap on the Run: 1/day per class level, when you take the withdraw action setting you can improvise a trap with a CR up to your class level as a free action. Cost of the trap is standard, and you must have materials unless you are in a wilderness environment. If you are observed at the point you wish to place the trap, you may make a Disguise, Hide or Sleight of Hand check (your choice) opposed by the enemies Spot/Perception. If successful, the enemy does not observe the placement of the trap and must attempt to detect it normally. If you fail, the enemy observes the trap and automatically detects it (but must attempt to disarm or avoid it using normal means)." Depending on your tolerance for cheese, it's possible to write that ability in a less overtly gamist manner.
If you need more ideas or brainstorming, just speak up.
