Alien Intelligence

Morrus · Jun 29, 2015

tomBitonti said:
If intelligent life persists, then it should eventually be able to make Van Neumann probes and have them be nearly everywhere in the galaxy. We might be only a century or so away from doing this ourselves.

Yeah, but then it's millions of years to spread. I think the estimate is 10 million years at 0.5c? I may not be remembering correctly, though; it's been a while since I've read about that.

I think you get back to the Fermi Paradox pretty quickly.

Yeah, that's basically what this thread is about. We're all positing the standard solutions to the Fermi Paradox.

Bullgrit · Jun 29, 2015

Yeah, that's basically what this thread is about. We're all positing the standard solutions to the Fermi Paradox.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?462203-Alien-Intelligence/page4#ixzz3eSznpP6b

Actually, that may be what this thread has become, but it started out about whether human-like intelligence is an evolutionary freak, since it doesn't seem necessary for survival. I don't mind the turn this has taken, but we have discussed Fermi Paradox before.

Bullgrit

Morrus · Jun 29, 2015

Bullgrit said:
Actually, that may be what this thread has become, but it started out about whether human-like intelligence is an evolutionary freak, since it doesn't seem necessary for survival. I don't mind the turn this has taken, but we have discussed Fermi Paradox before.

The Fermi Paradox (even when it's not named as such in a thread) is such a compelling subject, I don't think I'll ever tire of talking about or reading about it and the questions it raises. That's probably why most threads about alien life end up being about it.

Alzrius · Jun 29, 2015

I've long been fond of Peter Watts' short story "The Things", which is a retelling of the 1982 John Carpenter film The Thing from the point of view of the alien. It does an excellent job of putting us in a distinctly non-human mindset. And it has an audiobook version to boot!

Umbran · Jun 29, 2015

Bullgrit said:
Actually, that may be what this thread has become, but it started out about whether human-like intelligence is an evolutionary freak, since it doesn't seem necessary for survival.

Well, to be fair, *any* single trait is an evolutionary freak. No single trait is *necessary* for survival. Sight? Nope - there are things that live without eyes? Lungs? Nope, there are things with only gills - heck, there are anaerobic things that don't need free oxygen, much less lungs!

tomBitonti · Jun 29, 2015

Jhaelen said:
I like Stanislaw Lem's take on this. The recurring theme of his novels is that aliens are so utterly 'different' from us that there's practically no chance to ever communicate with them in a meaningful way. Take your pick (or better read them all!):
- Solaris,
- Fiasco,
- Eden,
- His Master's Voice,
- The Invincible

Great stories! (Although I didn't really care for His Master's Voice and didn't finish it.) Lem's stories really provide a refreshing alternate view.

Nice to find another Lem fan out there.

Thx!

TomB

tomBitonti · Jun 29, 2015

Umbran said:
Not necessarily. There is a major question as to whether technology will ever allow anyone (human or otherwise) to build devices that can last for the required centuries of exposure to interstellar space without maintenance.

Yeah, the inevitability of such devices is not proven. In my defense, its a common science fiction conceit to presume that devices capable of crossing interstellar distances as functioning machines, including slowing down at a distant star, are possible. But, we don't actually know that the crossing is possible engineering. There might fundamental limitations, for example, information theoretic ones which give limits on error free communications. I find oddly amusing the disconnect between popular views (e.g., the belief in aliens, or in the possibility of aliens) with what is known scientifically. Interstellar crossings may be in the same space as 30' tall insects: Not physically possible.

To reply to a different post, I've read an estimate of around 3 million years for filling the galaxy with probes. I'd say 10 million years is very reasonable as a comparable estimate. But, that's still a short time compared with the several billions of years which seem to be the time frame to consider.

Thx!

TomB

Morrus · Jun 29, 2015

tomBitonti said:
Yeah, the inevitability of such devices is not proven. In my defense, its a common science fiction conceit to presume that devices capable of crossing interstellar distances as functioning machines, including slowing down at a distant star, are possible. But, we don't actually know that the crossing is possible engineering. There might fundamental limitations, for example, information theoretic ones which give limits on error free communications. I find oddly amusing the disconnect between popular views (e.g., the belief in aliens, or in the possibility of aliens) with what is known scientifically. Interstellar crossings may be in the same space as 30' tall insects: Not physically possible.

To reply to a different post, I've read an estimate of around 3 million years for filling the galaxy with probes. I'd say 10 million years is very reasonable as a comparable estimate. But, that's still a short time compared with the several billions of years which seem to be the time frame to consider.

Thx!

TomB

My time frame is about another 50 years if I do well.

Umbran · Jun 29, 2015

tomBitonti said:
Interstellar crossings may be in the same space as 30' tall insects: Not physically possible.

Well, a 30 foot tall insect is not even *theoretically* possible, given the constraints of materials allowed to "insects", the structures insects us, and the like.

The space travel thing I would call more "not *practically* possible". There's no single element that means it can't work, in theory, but just the cosmic ray bombardment kills the machine in practice, for example.

tomBitonti · Jun 29, 2015

Umbran said:
Well, a 30 foot tall insect is not even *theoretically* possible, given the constraints of materials allowed to "insects", the structures insects us, and the like.

The space travel thing I would call more "not *practically* possible". There's no single element that means it can't work, in theory, but just the cosmic ray bombardment kills the machine in practice, for example.

Well, you could create an insect like creature (say, a very very large crab) which could work in the ocean which would not work on land.

It might be that a vessel attempting to cross even a very small (4 light year) interstellar distance might run into a similar physical limitation: It might be that no machine could cross the distance and remain functional, because of some limitation of physical materials. I'm considering cosmic ray bombardment to be this sort of limitation.

Likewise, we don't really even know how long people can survive in low-G environments, beyond about a year or so: http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-lo...ore-it-is-too-hard-to-re-acclimatize-to-Earth

But we are getting pretty far from the original question.

Thx!

TomB

Alien Intelligence

Morrus

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Bullgrit

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Morrus

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Alzrius

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Umbran

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tomBitonti

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tomBitonti

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Morrus

Well, that was fun

Umbran

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