Abortion

innerdude said:

I'm.....disheartened, saddened, I suppose, that in all this conversation, nothing has been said to effect that regardless of when you accept "personhood" in term of pregnancy, that every pregnancy represents the potential for human life.

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As does every egg and every sperm, hence this song:



[video=youtube;fUspLVStPbk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk[/video]

Some thoughts:

1) There *are* cases where a difficult decision must be made, for example, cases where conjoined twins are separated, and a decision is made to give priority to one of the twins. That's a rare case, but exists. See, for example: http://pmj.bmj.com/content/77/911/593.full.

2) But not so extreme are ectopic pregnancies. (There are probably lots of links; here is one chosen mostly at random: http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-ectopic-pregnancy.) These types of pregnancies are not so rare, and might rarely lead to a viable pregnancy.

3) The odds of an ectopic pregnancy is about 1/50 (from what I read). Common enough to require an answer as to what is to be done when it occurs.

4) I did a search for "non-viable" pregnancies, since ectopic pregnancies are but one example. Distilling useful information would take a longer time than I have at present, so I have no additional comments.

5) This is arguably still in the realm of medical necessity. Which leads to an initial question, of whether abortion in these types of cases is lawful or moral.

6) Also arguably, other abortions are chosen in cases where there is no medical necessity. That is, when the mother and fetus are both healthy and the pregnancy is expected to reach term. The same question can be asked in this case (if the separation of cases is accepted).

7) Some delineation can be made in elective cases: Eggs and Sperm in-vitro but not combined. In-vitro fertilized eggs. Implanted fertilized eggs, then further delineations based on the transition of fertilized egg to a small bundle of cells, to a fetus, to a newly born fetus.

8) At what point in the transition of uncombined eggs and sperm to birth a transition occurs. I believe that most people would consider the uncombined eggs and sperm to be not a person. I also believe that most people would consider a nearly born fetus is a person.

9) One can try to determine when a person is present. This seems difficult: The transition is gradual. Fertilization and implantation do provide distinguishable steps, and there are key transitions during later development. But, most seem to think that a just fertilized egg is not yet a person, putting the moment of transition in a difficult to place spot during a long and gradual development.

10) This looks at the basic biology. There are other issues which relate to empathy and association. I'll try to think through all of that and add to these notes.

11) There are still other issues which have to do with questions of control and decision making power. Still more to think through.

Thx!

TomB

MechaPilot said:

As does every egg and every sperm, hence this song:

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I know the song. And in certain circumstances find it amusing. In current context I think it's inappropriate and somewhat dismissive, given the overall tenor of the conversation at hand.

This is arguably still in the realm of medical necessity. Which leads to an initial question, of whether abortion in these types of cases is lawful or moral.

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Those are classic examples of medical necessity. Most people I know of would consider those to be both moral and thus, should remain legal.

While I admire your passion, the political discourse (or rather, what passes for political discourse in the US) takes the position that "naturally abortion should be allowed under ___ circumstances", and twists it to mean that it should be allowed ONLY under ___ circumstances.

How many criminals and sociopaths was the world denied because they were aborted?

Even the best birth control in the world is not 100% fool proof.

And, of course, I do not share the general conception that human life is something necessarily wonderful to be treasured. In fact, I think the planet would benefit greatly from a drastic reduction in human population. Say, down to half in the next 30 years?

innerdude said:

I'm.....disheartened, saddened, I suppose, that in all this conversation, nothing has been said to effect that regardless of when you accept "personhood" in term of pregnancy, that every pregnancy represents the potential for human life.

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You just demonstrated it is not a person, as it is not one yet. Like the egg has the potential to become a chicken, but it isn't a chicken, its an egg. Potentiality is meaningless. It is only killing actual people that is problematic. And event then...

On a related note, free birth control reduces pregnancy. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/s...-pregnancies-is-a-startling-success.html?_r=0

Seems like a good way to reduce abortions as they fell by 42%.

They did in a big way, and the results were startling. The birthrate among teenagers across the state plunged by 40 percent from 2009 to 2013, while their rate of abortions fell by 42 percent, according to the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. There was a similar decline in births for another group particularly vulnerable to unplanned pregnancies: unmarried women under 25 who have not finished high school.

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innerdude said:

I'm.....disheartened, saddened, I suppose, that in all this conversation, nothing has been said to effect that regardless of when you accept "personhood" in term of pregnancy, that every pregnancy represents the potential for human life.

Whether you believe "life" begins at conception, 18 weeks, 24 weeks, 30 weeks, a pregnancy represents an opportunity to bring another sentient being into the world. To enjoy life experiences. To explore their creative potential. To enjoy the privilege of living.

How many works of fiction have we lost to abortion? How many world-renowned paintings? How many symphonies and arias, how many songs? Can loss of potential be quantified this way? I don't know.

I personally believe that life begins at conception, but recognize that the world I live in has determined that until 24 weeks post-conception, an unborn child does not have a fundamental right to life.

This will likely not change, and any attempts to do so are likely futile at this point.

As a result, I can only offer the observation that under many circumstances, an abortion is tragedy, in the truest literal and metaphysical senses.

Obviously when the mother's life and health are at risk, or the child is the product of rape or incest, certainly a safe, legal abortion should be an available recourse. But in so many cases, an abortion is a tragic failure---and perhaps I am not fully without blame in the tragedy.

It's a failure on the part of the man and woman who initiated the pregnancy to evaluate the risks and take even the easiest of steps to prevent it if the pregnancy is unwanted.

It's a failure on the part of government and yes, concerned citizens unwilling to pay increased taxes to support health choices, increased opportunities for medical care, and general financial support for a woman who might choose to carry a pregnancy to full term. I would gladly double my current tax burden if it meant an immediate 50% reduction in the number of abortions performed annually in the United States.

In many cases it's a failure born of broken socioeconomics, of endemic poverty, lack of education and opportunity.

I also recognize that in some cases it is not a failure of any of these, but is a function of a lifestyle choice consciously made. Perhaps it would be these I would most hope to change.

If abortions will be deemed legal, so be it. My charge must then be to work to gently persuade those to choose a different course.

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Except that Freakonomics demonstrated the following:

an aborted baby tends to get born later by the same mom. A woman who always wanted 3 kids, but gets pregnant in college accidentally, and terminates, will later be found to have 3 kids.

a woman who is seeking an abortion is not ready to have a kid. The women who were forced to have kids or were stuck, having them did not have the means to do so well enough to increase the chances of success. Abortions are not tending to kill Beethovens. They are killing criminals. Roe V. Wade ended the increasing crime wave from the 80's to the 90's when that batch of crooks, simply did not exist to come of age.

the potential for human life is great, except for the statistics that demonstrate that the prospects for a life being born to the conditions that a woman would choose abortion are dismal.

Luckily, there's a cure. Birth control helps, as demonstrated by Colorado to cut down on abortions. raising people out of poverty, so they aren't stuck having to make a difficult choice means that when they get pregnant, their kid has good prospects. Crime rate goes down, abortion rate goes down. People's success levels go up. Everybody wins.

As in most things, there is a range of experience. There are women who treat an abortion like a trip to the nails salon. There are also children, who have been raped by a family member, who are then forced to carry that child. I've seen both and the former is infuriating, while the latter is heart breaking.

But, as I said further up thread, it's not me who has to live with the decision.

Ryujin said:

As in most things, there is a range of experience. There are women who treat an abortion like a trip to the nails salon. There are also children, who have been raped by a family member, who are then forced to carry that child. I've seen both and the former is infuriating, while the latter is heart breaking.

But, as I said further up thread, it's not me who has to live with the decision.

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I would assume the former are the kind of "waste in the system" that we sort of have to put up with. Like welfare cheats, speeders on the freeway, etc.

I might also imagine that the kind of woman who makes apparently casual trips to the clinic may not have the kind of life/job that getting emotional about it would help. Imagine a prostitute or something controlled by a pimp. She doesn't really have a choice if you look are her options as a knuckle sandwich or a beating.

My example doesn't have to be right, just plausible to understand that what we think is going on, isn't all there is. I would bet that statistically we would not find too many women who enjoy getting abortions. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.