Help Me Make My Skill Challenge Fun

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I'm not sure combat will be a major factor. I'm one of the players, and by TS's own admission, we managed to rile up most/all the guards by yelling and shouting at the door. Turned what would've been several dinky encounters into one big, messy fluster cluck, which we survived *mostly* because of terrain (everyone rushed out the main door to attack us) and blowing all of our dailies :p (and I STILL flirted with death more than once!)

I will edit (or post again) later with more on the "fail forward" thing. I admit I may have been over-thinking it, but that's what I do.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
*I realize that the first advice given about SCs is "Don't tell the players they're in a SC," but seeing as how you and the other players have already seen part of the dungeon map and had the first encounter there...well, I think the cat's already out of the bag. :p
I think it can be perfectly legit to let them know they're in an SC. It can become like a game-within-a-game, giving a nice break from the usual D&Disms.

1) Because of their X-successes-before-Y-failures nature, SCs incentivize players to leave all the rolling up to the PC with the highest bonus.
Have a number of different skills that can be used, and place limits on how many times the same skill can be used. That way it's not just Mr. Wizard rolling arcana 8 times. I also always go around the table and have everyone do something in the context of the challenge. Even if it's only an aid another roll (pretty easy, not a failure in the SC if they manage to blow it).

2) When I last ran SCs, I didn't tie individual success/failures to a narrative or any individual mechanical outcomes. So SCs were for my players just roll, roll, roll...roll some more...final outcome. Bleh!
I do like to describe a result for each roll, when it makes sense.

I've done the kind of SC you're doing, before. It's a nice way of handling exploration that doesn't get tedious with mapping and poking every flagstone with a 10' pole. For each success, describe the party making progress - finding a secret door, disarming a trap, bypassing an encounter, gleaning some useful information, etc... For each failure, have one of those isolated micro-encounters jump the PCs with surprise, or have a trap or other danger catch the character who failed.

At three failures, you have a choice - just keep going with the micro-encounters & whatnot and grind them down until they get the requisite successes, penalize them with loss of surges or other resources and proceed to the climax, trigger a time-important event that affects the climactic battle or the party's objectives, or just bring the climactic battle to them, in some disadvantageous area of the dungeon (like, oh, an underground arena) or have them fall into a trap which dumps them, battered, prone, and in fireball formation at the feet of the BBEG, ready to be blasted.
 

Oldtimer

Great Old One
Publisher
Here's my take on this: combat incentivises players to leave all the rolling up to the PC with the highest bonus, too.
Not really. Sending the fighter into combat alone without any help, will almost certainly end with a dead fighter.

How do we avoid that for combat? We don't just have the orcs form a line and duel with the fighter one-on-one.
No, we let the orcs surround the fighter and beat him to a bloody pulp in a round or two.

The mechanism X successes before 3 failures doesn't look anything like combat. Attacking and missing doesn't bring you closer to losing the combat than just being stunned for the round unable to do anything. It is the opponents' successes in hitting you that bring you closer to losing the combat.

X successes before 3 failures incentivises letting a single character do all the work. You can force the players' hands, but the game mechanism is fighting against you rather than helping you.

Quickleaf gave the example: "A trapped treasure vault rigged to blow if wrong answer is given. In this scenario an X successes before Y failures is appropriate." I agree and as a player in that scenario I would certainly send forth the most knowledgeable character while the rest of us hid around a corner. Preferably with the half-orc barbarian gagged and bound.

An excellent version of Skill Challenge rules were given in Galaxy of Intrigue for Star Wars Saga Edition. Worth reading and using in D&D as well.
 

pemerton

Legend
X successes before 3 failures incentivises letting a single character do all the work. You can force the players' hands, but the game mechanism is fighting against you rather than helping you.
It only creates that incentive if the GM frames the fiction in such a way that nothing bad is going to happen if no one else acts. Given that D&D is a party-based game, we don't generally design and adjudicate combat encounters in that way, so why would we do so for non-combat encounters?

The mechanism X successes before 3 failures doesn't look anything like combat. Attacking and missing doesn't bring you closer to losing the combat than just being stunned for the round unable to do anything. It is the opponents' successes in hitting you that bring you closer to losing the combat.
But those successes are a function of attacking and missing, because if you attack and hit then you take the opponent out of the fight.

Sending the fighter into combat alone without any help, will almost certainly end with a dead fighter.
Not if the fighter is allowed to take on the orcs one-at-a-time, in a series of gentlemanly duels.

But it is taken for granted, in the design and adjudication of combat encounters, that they won't unfold like this. If the same principle is applied in the design and adjudication of non-combat encounters, then even players not optimised for whatever is going on will declare actions for their PCs.

Imagine how D&D combat would look if it was just a series of static, sequential rolls to hit (in the fiction, that is my line of duelling orcs). Of course groups would send the fighter in to make those rolls. But no one frames combats like that. (Sometimes players manufacture such a situation, eg by having the fighter hold a chokepoint. But that is by dint of their play; it's not generally just handed to them on a platter by the GM.)

If non-combat challenges are framed as a series of static, sequential rolls against a predetermined fictional element of a predetermined difficulty (like a monster's AC, or a lock's DC) then players will send in the bard, or thief, or whomever to make all the rolls. In general, I think that is not good encounter design out of combat any more than it is good design in combat.

Quickleaf gave the example: "A trapped treasure vault rigged to blow if wrong answer is given. In this scenario an X successes before Y failures is appropriate." I agree and as a player in that scenario I would certainly send forth the most knowledgeable character while the rest of us hid around a corner. Preferably with the half-orc barbarian gagged and bound.
That doesn't seem to me to be a very interesting skill challenge - it is really just a complex skill check, and it is the sort of thing that, in 4e, works best integrated into a broader situation which engages the other PCs (examples I've used include shutting down demonic gates, or unlocking doors to safety, while the rest of the party hold off onrushing hordes).

A skill challenge that is meant to engage the whole party needs to exert pressure, in the fiction, upon each PC, just as is the case in the typical combat. In combat, players are expected to use their resources to change the fictional situation so that their PC can work effectively rather than be ineffective - for instance, the player of a melee fighter is expected to declare actions that bring his/her PC into melee contact with the monsters/NPCs (and similarly the player of an archer or wizard who finds his/her PC in melee is expected to declare actions that restore to his/her PC the advantages of range). Or players (and their PCs) can help one another - eg the wizard teleports the fighter into melee, or the fighter holds off an enemy while the wizard or ranger falls back.

Similarly in a skill challenge: if the players have PCs who are strong at A but not B, and the GM is confronting them with a B-situation, then the players should be bringing their resources to bear to turn it into an A-situation, and hence one in which they can do well. Players who don't try and change the fiction, but just hurl themselves futilely at the GM's initial framing hoping that they get N successes before 3 failures are like players who leave their wizards in melee and their melee fighters throwing stones rather ineffectually from range.

Because there is no action economy in a skill challenge comparable to D&D combat, the onus falls on the GM to be fair and reasonable in the way that s/he applies pressure. For instance, if the NPCs strike up conversation with the low-CHA fighter, and the player rollls and fails some appropriate social check, and then another player declares an action that succeeds and that takes the low-CHA fighter out of the social situation, the GM shouldn't just turn the pressure back onto the player of the fighter (assuming it's not a two-player game) - there are other players whose PCs are there to be engaged. I don't adopt a strictly round robin policy - I try to be even-handed in my applications of pressure, but I also follow the lead of the fiction, which includes letting the players enjoy the benefits of their successful checks. For instance, if the fighter is successfully extracted from the social situation, then it would be unreasonable to apply further social pressure to that PC unless the fighter reenters the social situation. (Which s/he might do for any number of reasons, the most obvious of which would be to avoid looking anti-social.)

In short, in an interesting skill challenge the GM will be applying the pressure to all the players (via their PCs), and the players will be using their action declarations and their PC abilities to make their own luck, just as happens in the typical D&D combat.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
EzekielRaiden: Point taken about using powers in SCs -- I definitely ascribe to the 'Powers can be used anytime, anywhere' philosophy.

As you know, I'm new to the fail-forward thing, and I think I'm not understanding it the way you do. For example, wouldn't it be natural in D&D to handle fail-forward with check-result ranges, rather than d6s or natural-d20 ranges? It seems like this would make it easier to build your 'basic v. expert' tasks into a SC. In any case, I'll do my best to make it a part of my SC(s)!

Okay, now to actually address this. I had had a huge long discussion of exactly how Dungeon World uses fail-forward, but...it might be a waste of time. LONG story short: DW is specifically built around having most rolls include both success and danger. Except for a roll that has at least a +3 modifier (which requires a maxed stat, or an unusual confluence of bonuses), "partial success" is the dominant result, which means the player gets some of what they want but not everything (which sets the stage for future rolls or future direct dangers), or the player gets exactly what they want but must accept a potential pitfall. This imposes an important dynamic on play, and the way that DMs are encouraged to handle results compounds that.

The real meat of the issue is: if dice are hitting the table, "action" is happening. "Action" doesn't have to be constantly rising tension though--it just means that there's something happening which pushes forward the situation. When there's an unequivocal success, the players more-or-less "get what they want"--though that often also comes with the opportunity to seek greater rewards by taking an extra risk. When something only partially succeeds, the players get what they want (sometimes "more or less"), but usually have a new problem to deal with, too--either one that's already asking for action, or one that can fester into real danger unless action is taken. When something "fails," especially a "skill" thing rather than a "combat" thing, that means some serious complication arises.

But that complication doesn't have to be 100% bad. Maybe it means that the information they want is there, but there's a thorny issue along with it (one example from a doc I read, "oh yeah, the footman you know would DEFINITELY know where the documents you need are...but he's waiting hand and foot on the Duchess, who HATES you"), or in searching for the info, you stumble into some of the bad guys' henchmen trying to cover their tracks. It's still a "loss" in some sense, you still have a hardship to deal with, but the hardship is never "nothing happens."

A roll that results in *zero* change to the fiction, the characters' goals, or the state of the playing field simply *should not happen* in Dungeon World. Some rolls like Discern Realities (a beefed-up 'search') or Spout Lore (essentially 'knowledge,' usually with some kind of focus) can be difficult to give consequences to, but both of the examples I mentioned are suggestions people have made for doing so.

In a certain sense, this is akin to some of the stuff about whether "death" is an interesting challenge, that we had on here a while back. For some, the threat of "nothing" (e.g. you don't get to play) is a major motivator. But Dungeon World generally doesn't go for that. Instead it says that the players shouldn't need motivation outside of the fiction; the fiction alone should be enough to drive things forward, and any time they "fail," that fail should be a matter of "closing a door, opening a window or two." E.g., the house is never off-limits, but it can get harder to break into.

Dungeon World is my touchstone for how to do all of this--so I was sorta trying to present a way to fit (or kludge, as the case may be) the 2d6 system, with its elegance and simplicity, into the Skill Challenge format simply because I'm familiar with it. In all likelihood, it probably IS better to just set your own ranges. Unfortunately, with the way 4e rolls scale, they'll need to be relative to the die or DC, rather than absolute values like DW would do, but we'll just have to live with that.

The two obvious "relative" strategies are already known to you. The most obvious is the "+/- 5 increment" rule--beat by 5 or more, you get something extra special. Fail by 5 or less, and you get a partial success. Etc. The other is the one I mentioned, which is relative to the die rather than the target number, where most D&D games already implement critical success and many give critical failure as well, but adding additional shades. You can also combine the two. Perhaps 1/2/3 and 18/19/20 are all "special success," with critical success/fail being especially good/bad, while if you are within +/- 1 of the check value, you get a partial success that complicates the situation.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Point taken about using powers in SCs -- I definitely ascribe to the 'Powers can be used anytime, anywhere' philosophy.
Some examples I can think of from my 4e game:

* Using Bedevilling Burst to make the waiting stuff drop their jellies, thereby demonstrating that a gelationous cube can be defeated in physical combat;

* Using Come and Get It to shift loose stones in the bottom of a well to block the influx of water into the well, thereby weakening the water weird inside it;

* Using Memory of 1000 Lifetimes to recall a teleportation sigil in Hestavar, so that a Planar Portal could be opened that would allow Pelor's divine radiance to shine through and enable a Religion check to help cleanse the tainted angels of Mal Arundak.

I'm new to the fail-forward thing, and I think I'm not understanding it the way you do.
The best treatment of "fail forward" that I know is in Burning Wheel. (Luke Crane, the lead BW designer, and Ron Edwards are widely credited with being the first to articulate the idea.)

In BW, when a player delcares an action for his/her PC, s/he declares an intent - roughly, the way in which s/he wants the fiction to change - and a task - roughly, the thing that his/her PC is doing in the fiction so as to bring about that change.

If the check succeeds, the PC succeeds at the task and the players' intent is realised.

If the check fails, the players' intent is not realised, and the GM gets to narrate what happens instead. This may or may not involve narrating a failure of the PC's task. The key thing is that the GM is expected to introduce some new element into the fiction which (i) is contrary to the player's intent, but (ii) creates a situation which will generate new pressures for the players to declare actions for their PCs, rather than just stalling/road blocks.

A simple example: the low-CHA fighter talks to an NPC, the player rolls a check, and fails. Road block GMing: "The NPC rebuffs you. What do you do now?" Fail forward GMing: "The NPC takes you aside and tells you [blah blah blah]", where the [blah blah blah] is more or less the opposite of what the player wanted his/her PC to hear, or confronts the player with the need to choose between offending the NPC or going against the wishes of one of the other PCs, etc.

The key to "fail forward" adjudication is being ready to introduce new elements into the fiction - not because the internal causal logic of the gameworld tells you that you should, but because they frame the PC of the player who just failed the check into a new, dynamic situation of adversity.
 

pemerton

Legend
The two obvious "relative" strategies are already known to you. The most obvious is the "+/- 5 increment" rule--beat by 5 or more, you get something extra special. Fail by 5 or less, and you get a partial success. Etc.
In the context of a 4e skill challenge, I think it is easiest to stick to the machinery that the game and the rulebooks already provide.

For instance, the Rules Compendium spells out the idea of "advantages" which can be used eg to have a Hard success count also as a Moderate success, or to have a Hard success remove an accumulated failure.

You can then follow the DMG2 advice, of allowing expenditure of an Encounter power or, where appropriate, a healing surge, grant a +2 on a check, thus making it more likely that the chance to use an "advantage" will come up.

Failures accrued during the course of the challenge can't be narrated as hard fails, because (i) the overall challenge might end up a success, and (ii) individual failures might be negated by use of an advantage. The failure of a challenge overall can be narrated as a hard fail if the GM inclines that way, although my personal preference is to "fail forward" in encounters overall, as well as within the component elements of an encounter.
 

I think what Tequila was asking has more to do with combats lasting a long time in 4e. So it's less a question of room layout and more a question of wanting to reserve breaking out full combat rules for the climactic fight...and then how do you handle the rest of the dungeon exploration with skill challenge rules instead of combat rules. Er, at least I *think* that's what he's asking.

He did use the phrase "a SC" but you could well be correct about what he is envisaging. If that's the case then its a bit more straightforward, at least conceptually. :)
 

Not really. Sending the fighter into combat alone without any help, will almost certainly end with a dead fighter.


No, we let the orcs surround the fighter and beat him to a bloody pulp in a round or two.

The mechanism X successes before 3 failures doesn't look anything like combat. Attacking and missing doesn't bring you closer to losing the combat than just being stunned for the round unable to do anything. It is the opponents' successes in hitting you that bring you closer to losing the combat.

X successes before 3 failures incentivises letting a single character do all the work. You can force the players' hands, but the game mechanism is fighting against you rather than helping you.

Quickleaf gave the example: "A trapped treasure vault rigged to blow if wrong answer is given. In this scenario an X successes before Y failures is appropriate." I agree and as a player in that scenario I would certainly send forth the most knowledgeable character while the rest of us hid around a corner. Preferably with the half-orc barbarian gagged and bound.

An excellent version of Skill Challenge rules were given in Galaxy of Intrigue for Star Wars Saga Edition. Worth reading and using in D&D as well.

I'm thinking something akin to how Dungeon World works here. You're always letting the PCs roll, but that doesn't mean that every check is just an attack. You could have them make checks where success yields a successful attack, narrated as damage to the enemy, etc, and failure yields something negative, usually damage caused by a monster hitting you, but potentially some other tactical setback, etc. You could even draw up a short list of 'moves' that each character can use and define how they relate to the overall fight. You lack some niceties of DW, but its always possible to add them in (IE the 'success with a cost' 7-9 result).

As to whether this technique should lead to failure on 3 failed checks, I'm not sure. It COULD in cases where the goal isn't 'slaughter the enemy', but even then you still have to resolve what DOES happen to the fighting part of things. (IE if the PCs have failed to get the McGuffin before the bad guys retrieve it then what? Do you just narrate the bad guys hightailing it, or does the fight grind on?).
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
I've done pretty much exactly what you're looking to do (I think). Check out my Dragon Mountain 4e conversion PDF (link in sig); towards the front is an Exploring Dragon Mountain skill challenge on a 2-page spread, and also a Descending the Chasm smaller skill challenge. Both of these just use the general idea of skill challenges with unique mechanics. Very worth looking over for your purposes/inspiration.
Ooh, this looks interesting! Thanks for your work. :)

Interesting... Yeah, I think I would abstract the whole thing, but here's the question, if it isn't going to be abstracted to a linear series of sub-encounters, then how do you choose which area the PCs encounter next? Are there clues that give them a meaningful choice? Maybe sometimes its dependent on narrative (IE if you drive off the goblin guards then the next check is to see if you caught the witch doctor in the next room, etc. Other times it COULD be random, but that seems a bit less fun.

I think what Tequila was asking has more to do with combats lasting a long time in 4e. So it's less a question of room layout and more a question of wanting to reserve breaking out full combat rules for the climactic fight...and then how do you handle the rest of the dungeon exploration with skill challenge rules instead of combat rules. Er, at least I *think* that's what he's asking.
Exactly so. When starting this thread, my plan was to abstract the entire dungeon -- save for the last encounter -- into pure narrative-SC form. No map, no areas, just players choosing what their characters do as they explore the dungeon -- navigate, scout ahead, etc. -- and then roll+narrate their journey through the dungeon. Mini-SCs to present further dangers and choices, but nothing that requires any kind of map.

I'm starting to think that this approach would have worked better for labyrinth or wilderness kind of areas, where there aren't many visually-distinct encounters. But I'm finding this process surprisingly exhausting -- I don't know how much of it is the process, and how much is my emotional state interfering -- so I'm sticking with my initial super-abstract SC plan for this dungeon. Next time I'll go more toward the route that y'all prefer, and see how that works for the group.
 

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