D&D 4E 4e Tiefling Battlemind

I've never had much of a chance to play 4e, but my GM has expressed interest in running a game so I've been poking about the internet to see what I could come up with.

I find the idea of a tiefling battlemind intriguing for a variety of reasons and any help or guidance that could be offered on that front would be welcome.

However I have a specific rule interaction question I'm not clear on. If my character was to wield a Net (from the 2009 Dragon Annual) the basic proficiency feat says: "Benefit: You gain proficiency with the net. When you hit a target with your net, the target is slowed until the end of your next turn."

My point of confusion is exactly what is meant by a hit. For example if I were to employ the level 1 at-will Concussive Spike which says: "Hit: 1 [W] + Constitution modifier force damage. You push each enemy in the blast other than the target a number of squares equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier."

Would that push and slow every other enemy in a close blast 3? That seems absurdly powerful for an unaugmented lvl 1 at-will and a single feat, especially given that it then sets up World Serpents Grasp.

No one? Okay, any opinions on whether the Net, powerful as it is, is worth taking up the MC feat slot? Otherwise I could grab something like a Monk MC feat to open up Soaring blade, or fighter for the various weapon feats.

If I remember correctly--and it's been a while, so I might not--hitting a target requires that you make a successful attack roll against that target. Therefore, no, you would not slow every enemy in a close blast 3. Only the one enemy you target would get slowed.

I was never all that conversant with Battleminds, so I'm afraid I don't have much to offer in the way of optimization advice. I can, however, point you towards the Battlemind guide on the WotC CharOp forums, in case you hadn't found that yet.

My impression of the Net is that it's cute but not really worthwhile, and a cursory scan of CharOp tends to confirm that impression.

tiornys said:

If I remember correctly--and it's been a while, so I might not--hitting a target requires that you make a successful attack roll against that target. Therefore, no, you would not slow every enemy in a close blast 3. Only the one enemy you target would get slowed.

Click to expand...

Absolutelly right.

And the Net isn't generally worth the MC slot unless you're optimising the whole party together to exploit slow and then prone.

Thanks for the help!

That makes sense, yet also seems weird in 4e.

So if someone takes damage from a zone they have not been hit? If a Monk uses his flurry of blows he can do damage but it's not a hit?

It makes it really hard to tell when riders work and when they don't. If my character has the Spear Push feat it would still push them an extra space, wouldn't it? Likewise Polearm Momentum would then knock them all prone, assuming I used a long spear. Gah, that means you need to parse every single feat/power/item/etc to see what exact verb it uses.

As far a the net goes, it seems likely to be worth it to me, as a Battlemind. The primary complaint I keep seeing about Battleminds is that they aren't sticky enough. Even if concussive spikes push doesn't work Lightning Rush would still let you push, and slow, (and prone if they were already slowed) 3+ foes a round. That is a hell of a lot of crowd control and therefore makes the Battlemind a huge target, which is kind of his job. It also sets up Brutal Barrage in Paragon which gets ugly.

Also as a powerpoint class the Battlemind doesn't really MC well. It seems to me the primary purpose of an MC with a battlemind is to either open up some feats (like Polearm Momentum) or a Paragon Path. However if my GM is allowing themes (he hasn't said yet) then Resurgent Wilder is everything I want so I see no need to MC just for a Paragon Path.

Or at least that's how everything looks to me on paper, I don't have enough 4e time under my belt to know from actual play experience. ;/

Thoughts? Thanks again for the help.

Yes, it can get tricky to keep track of which riders apply where. In addition to the "on hit" riders already discussed, there's the distinction between modifiers that get added to damage rolls (which is most modifiers) and increases to damage that doesn't care about rolling damage (this is something to watch for if you're thinking about optimizing Brutal Barrage).

The main issue with the net is that there are other ways to do similar or more powerful things without tying yourself to such a weak weapon and weak multiclass option. I'm not going to dig into all the myriad combos, but here's a strong combo that works along similar lines as what you wanted to do in your original post: (MC Fighter) + Polearm Momentum + Rushing Cleats + Bull Rush = Push 2 + Prone all enemies in a 3x3. Add Polearm Gamble and Heavy Blade Opportunity (with a Glaive) in paragon for shenanigans.

To make a battlemind functional you're really reliant on choosing the right feats as the class itself is a bit of a mess. With that in mind, I wouldn't be spending a feat on a net and would instead focus on those feats that help to make it a competent defender.

I don't think I'd criticize the net on that basis. The main things you need to solve as a Battlemind are 1) what to do about enemies who can shift multiple squares/how to handle difficult terrain, and 2) what to do about enemies simply moving away from you without shifting. For #1, any build can enhance Blurred Step with Blurred Speed, while Harrier Battleminds have the superior Harrying Step. For #2, you generally need a good OA. Debuffs that hinder or outright prevent enemy movement help with both issues.

Melee Training (CON) is generally the first half of acquiring a good, permanent OA that doesn't cost you power points (paragon tier Half Elves have a better answer), but because of the reduced damage it's desirable to further enhance your OAs or MBAs (with increased damage, increased control, or both). Net training-->World Serpent's Grasp is actually a good way to provide that enhancement while simultaneously also helping with the first issue: once you've landed the first hit on an enemy, subsequent hits will Prone, so your OAs will outright cancel enemy movement and it becomes a lot harder to shift away from you. Therefore, Net training is a perfectly viable way to make the Battlemind into a competent defender.

Mind you, I'm not advocating for Net training here. You're absolutely giving up too much to take it, just not in areas that prevent you from working as a defender. For one thing, you're not reliant on feats alone to solve the issues. Battleminds have access to various powers that also help with these fundamental problems. Some examples: Twisted Eye can serve as a short-term solution to needing a decent OA, Conductive Defense provides punishment to enemies regardless of your location, and Lodestone Lure outright prevents an enemy from moving away from you. And then there's the most important power-based option: Lightning Rush. With Lightning Rush, you can just let an enemy walk away if they want (after they eat an OA), and then put yourself right next to them when they actually try to attack someone else (as long as you've positioned yourself close enough to the allies you're defending). Frankly, I'd say Lightning Rush is the critical component for being an effective Battlemind unless you have a very esoteric build going on.

Thus, you don't actually need as much control as you get from Net training-->World Serpent's Grasp, and even if you want that level of control there are--as noted earlier--other ways of accessing similar control levels without compromising your weapon choice or multi-class choice to such a degree (mediocre weapons will give you at least +2/1d8, while good weapons are closer to +3/1d10 or +2/1d12, and your typical multi-class feat gets you a skill training and a useful power on top of opening up feat/paragon path access).

Well my thought had been to duel wield Kopesh and Net. The Kopesh benefits from the Tiefling weapon training so +2/1d8+2 (Brutal 1) plus it's a heavy blade which works with HBO and Headsman's chop. As I understand 4e duel wielding rules you can use any given power with either weapon as you please, so I could use the net to inflict slow and then the Kopesh for the followup blows. Is there a way to get that combined level of damage and control that doesn't eat more feats and call for worse MAD?

Admittedly for most characters the net doesn't look close to being worth it, but for this one I'm not sure what I'm really giving up.

I'm not convinced you're getting all that much extra damage out of the combo. Unless I'm missing something, you need three hits within a turn cycle (from the start of your turn to the end of your next turn) in order for Headsman's Chop to do anything for you (barring extra help from your party), and the 2nd and 3rd hits can't allow an enemy turn in-between (or they just stand up). In other words, you're not really getting control and damage on every hit--you're getting control or damage, and the damage doesn't happen until you've invested enough control. And to get there, you're giving up a shield, forcing yourself to take two Expertise feats or Versatile Expertise (giving up the riders from Flail Expertise and Heavy Blade Expertise), and forcing yourself to maintain enchantments on two weapons.

At that point, I think you'd be better off with Mark of Storm + Rushing Cleats + Polearm Momentum + Headsman's Chop with a Lightning Gouge. Now you're able to prone on any hit, you gain a lot of positioning control from slide 2 on any hit, and your base weapon damage is 2d6 (brutal 1) instead of 1d8 (brutal 1). It's about the same investment, but it's actually giving you both control and damage on every hit instead of only giving you one or the other.

"Side-by-side" analysis I wrote out to help form the opinions stated above:
Turathi Weapon Training + Net Training + Versatile Expertise + World Serpent's Grasp + Headsman's Chop + Heavy Blade Opportunist
Mark of Storms + Gouge Proficiency + Spear Expertise + Polearm Momentum + Headsman's Chop + Melee Training

Both need the same number of feats to get going. Net/Khopesh combo has the advantage of using at-wills on OAs, but lacks a useful MBA to use with stuff like charging, leader-granted attacks, Strikebacks, etc. It's also either expensive to maintain or giving up accuracy and damage from enhancement bonuses due to the need to maintain two magical weapons. Gouge combo has higher base damage, easier access to the Headsman's Chop payoff, and is easier to expand on with further feats (since everything I take applies to my single weapon), but is more reliant on specific magic items (Rushing Cleats and Lightning weapon). Can free up the weapon enhancement by being Stormsoul Genasi and investing another feat for Shocking Flame, which is definitely the way to go if looking at Frost or Radiant abuse on top of the prone exploitation.