The Confederate Flag

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tomBitonti

Adventurer
There was more going on in the minds of southern slaveholders than the economic upset. I've read that the Jamaican revolt was in peoples minds, with slaveholders fearing not just the freeing of slaves, but also the possibility of a general uprising. The issue of slavery and emancipation were apparently a very big deal to southern states.

Cotton cultivation created a huge demand for slaves, and was a huge part of the issue of slavery. (Cotton cultivation also drove westward expansion and eradication of indian populations. Check out: http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Cotton-A-Global-History/dp/0375414142.)

Thx!

TomB
 

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Janx

Hero
A lot's been said. There's that basic rule of thumb that when some people tell you X is offensive to them, stop doing it, maybe they have a point.

The facts in that article show some pretty offensive origins of the Confederacy. Folks are saying, don't support the Confederacy anymore.

It was born on a foundation of promoting evil. That is not a heritage to be proud of, but one to move past.

This ain't rocket science, it's stubborness to deny defeat in a war 150 years lost for an evil everybody else figured out 200 years ago was wrong.

So take that flag down.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
To clarify: I know a LOT of soldiers fought for the South with honor and for what they believed were good reasons...including a goodly number of blacks. Those people deserve to be remembered with respect.

However, the iconography of the political force they fought for has no nobility about it. Unlike the swastika, which had thousands of years of positive history on at least 2 continents associated with it before being subverted by Nazism, the CBF's origins are completely and thoroughly stained with the blood of oppressed people and soldiers who fought on 2 sides of a thoroughly preventable and treasonous war.

Honor those ancestors. Honor the great things about Southern culture. Please do.

But please, do it without the divisive iconography of the CBF.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
...an evil everybody else figured out 200 years ago was wrong.

Unfortunately, slavery is still alive & well, worldwide. Even in the USA. It just isn't practiced openly and notoriously in as many corners of the world as it used to be.

Both Smithsonian and National Geographic have run articles in the past decade or so showing the demographics of human trafficking. Lake Tahoe was #1 in the USA.
 

delericho

Legend
I don't think the Irish consider the British Empire escaping censure, not at all.

You miss my point. The British Empire did some bad things, no question. And, far too often, there were Scots right there alongside the English doing those things.

But it tends to be the English that get the blame for those things. Very often, and unfairly, the Scots (of whom I am one) escape that blame.

(Bear in mind that I was answering Bullgrit's question about part of a group carrying the blame for all of a group. So there's some context to consider.)
 


gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
You miss my point. The British Empire did some bad things, no question. And, far too often, there were Scots right there alongside the English doing those things.

But it tends to be the English that get the blame for those things. Very often, and unfairly, the Scots (of whom I am one) escape that blame.

(Bear in mind that I was answering Bullgrit's question about part of a group carrying the blame for all of a group. So there's some context to consider.)

Indeed, and I've got some Scottish in me too - Grandfather Irish and Grandmother Scottish, and I'm half Japanese. A violent heritage there with blame of its own.
 

The Confederate Battle Flag was first used as a symbol of one of the armies committing treason in defence of slavery. Who themselves said that "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery" in their own list of causes at the time. And whose VP claimed in March 1861 that "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

And yes, the South does get a worse rap for slavery than the rest of the US despite the presence of Sundown Towns - largely in the North. This is because, as almost everything from 1861 makes clear, the reason for the Confederacy existing at all was to perpetuate slavery. If you look at the numbers, you find that every single state where fewer than 24% of the population was enslaved remained loyal. And the traitors all had more than 24% of their population enslaved. Yes, it splits that cleanly. (For anyone wondering why a number of "free" states had numbers of slaves like 2 and 15, blame the Dredd Scott decision that allowed slaveowners to take their slaves with them to the North; it is a measure of how much of a post-hoc justification the claim of States Rights was that the declarations of causes of secession normally alude to the fact that the Northern states were not happy to allow Southern Gentlemen to take their slaves to the North as one of their grievances).

So the Confederacy was created to perpetuate slavery, and it did a grand total of two notable things in its short life. Attempted to perpetuate slavery and fought an unsuccessful war.

When people fly Confederate Flags, that is the "Southern Heritage" that that flag stands directly for. I'll let William T Thompson, the designer of the so-called Stainless Banner, the confederate flag closest to the Virginian Battle Flag normally waved explain exactly what the flag was intended to symbolise:
As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. … Such a flag…would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as the white mans flag. … As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals.​

But this isn't where the Battle Flag's heritage ends. It wasn't particularly popular until first the Dixiecrats used it as part of their campaign to keep Jim Crow, and later George Wallace raised it in protest against the Civil Rights Act.

In short, that rag was flown at the time as part of an armed rebellion to perpetuate slavery. The official uses of it after the treasonous slaveowners were defeated have also been stunningly racist. Which means that that flag is a direct symbol of the heritage of the absolute worst of the South. Its only reason for being was to fight a war to perpetuate slavery. And its reason for popularity was racism.

And slavery was an institution that had been abolished in most of the North by the time the Civil War started in defence of slavery - modulo both the Fugitive Slave Act and the Dredd Scott decision. Which is why it is so strongly identified with the South. The Confederacy started a war to defend slavery even as those in the North had largely abolished it with their own territory - and the border states stayed with the United States.
 

Bullgrit

Adventurer
everytime a Southerner goes off about the "War of Northern Aggression"
I'll say it here rather than put it in the other thread, because that thread went far away from the original subject. This "War of Northern Aggression" phrase is another thing that I've heard so many people claim that Southerners say, but, in all my 48 years of living in the South, among some deep Southerners, as part of a family that I know had at least one Confederate soldier (my great-grandfather), I've never, ever heard one single Southerner actually say this or claim this about the Civil War. I've even been told to my face, by more than one non-Southerner, that Southern schools teach this phrase and belief.

Bullgrit
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I'll say it here rather than put it in the other thread, because that thread went far away from the original subject. This "War of Northern Aggression" phrase is another thing that I've heard so many people claim that Southerners say, but, in all my 48 years of living in the South, among some deep Southerners, as part of a family that I know had at least one Confederate soldier (my great-grandfather), I've never, ever heard one single Southerner actually say this or claim this about the Civil War. I've even been told to my face, by more than one non-Southerner, that Southern schools teach this phrase and belief.

Bullgrit

You're actually on the right path..ish. According to this site, that phrase was only used once during the Civil War- by a Union General- and its most common usage is not actually in reference to the Civil War itself.

Instead, "The War of Northern Aggression" was/is used as a term for the civil rights movement by modern segregationists & secessionists as an idiomatic ideological reference to the Civil War, not the war itself. They're verbally presenting the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s forward as a cold parallel to the hot war of the 1860s.

IOW, you're unlikely to hear that phrase used seriously by anyone except actual opponents of equality, not those who are viewing the South's history with rosy-lensed Ray Bans.
 

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