Bringing Wands of Fireball/Lightning Bolt in check

CapnZapp

Legend
I consider the Wand of Lightning Bolt to be a very powerful item; after all you can use up six charges to effectively cast a eight level spell once a day.

If the wand only gave you access to regular lighning bolts it would be a very good, but not completely game-wrecking item to give a level 5 party. While it would give a party wizard eight bolts a day instead of two, at least it wouldn't allow the wielder to do something a level 5 wizard couldn't do by herself. But it also lets you fire off a 13d6 lightning bolt, which is completely overpowered at that level.

How about the following item:

Wand-Thing* of Lightning
Max 7 charges
Draws 6 charges to cast a third level Lightning Bolt only
Recovers 1d6 charges per day

What do you think? In summary, you would get a regular lightning bolt every other day on average.

*) Not necessarily a wand, since I don't want to have a "this wand works differently than all the rest" discussion...
 

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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
I think you are letting your game be more fragile than it is designed to be if one 13d6 lighting bolt a day is viewed as the smart choice by your players rather than six 8d6 lightning bolts, and if a few extra lightning bolts if needed makes you cry foul, and should probably just hand out a scroll of lightning bolt instead of the wand if you aren't prepared for a character to use 1/3 of their attunement slots on a wand that only does a single thing which doesn't have a wide application across all the potential things a character might be trying to accomplish in a day (since an action spent on a lightning bolt isn't by default always the most helpful use of that action for any given scenario).
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Do they require attunement?

I've found after a while wands get forgotten about because of attunement.
Yes.

I perfectly understand there comes a time where a 13d6 lightning bolt is so meh, you throw it on the "sell pile".

But my focus is on the levels way before that. Lightning Bolt is a third level spell. Something with lightning bolts is fantastic at levels 3-4, exciting at level 5, less exciting at level 7 and no exciting anymore at level 9. I want to be able to hand out Wand of Lightning Bolts to adventuring parties of those sweetspot levels!

This means a Wand of Lightning Bolt need to work well for characters of level 5 or so.

The original Wand, I'm afraid, is just strange. While the one charge effect is okay to hand out at that level, the way you can nova six or seven charges in one go makes it crazy at that level. On the other hand, at the level where 13d8 is good but not stupidly OP, the one charge bolt is getting middling, fast.

Thanks for your reply!
 

Revan79

First Post
If the wand becomes too much of a problem remeber it's only a magical "twig". It can be stolen, malfunction, get damaged, destroyed, cursed, backfire..etc. There is really nothing you can't do in order to "balance" it for your game. You could even just change how often it recharges if it's being used too much.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think you are letting your game be more fragile than it is designed to be if one 13d6 lighting bolt a day is viewed as the smart choice by your players rather than six 8d6 lightning bolts, and if a few extra lightning bolts if needed makes you cry foul, and should probably just hand out a scroll of lightning bolt instead of the wand if you aren't prepared for a character to use 1/3 of their attunement slots on a wand that only does a single thing which doesn't have a wide application across all the potential things a character might be trying to accomplish in a day (since an action spent on a lightning bolt isn't by default always the most helpful use of that action for any given scenario).
Let's see:

A 13d6 bolt is the smart choice if you're on a travelling adventure and encountering a monster above your regular punching grade. Not only does it significantly contribute to your ability to defeat said foe instead of retreating, wilderness adventures are notorious for having short adventure days (few encounters). Going nova during a wilderness trek is much more reasonable than when you're assaulting a dungeon, for instance.

But you're right: at 5th level, being granted six regular LBs is crazy powerful too. Do note that my proposed item attempts to solve both issues.

Attunement is not a cost at low levels, because it is unlikely a character has accumulated more than three significant items that early.

As for the scroll suggestion, I sincerely hope you would be much more excited about finding this wand than a scroll of LB.

If you find the scroll before level 5, there is a risk of miscasting. And even right at level 5, the scroll effectively represents "treasure that provides a single level 3 spell slot".

(Assuming you can already cast the spell. A Wizard looking to scribe LB into her spellbook would of course be happier than that).

What do you think of the item itself, Aaron? Am I too stingy? Should I transform it into a staff, perhaps allowing you to cast several lightning-themed spells (a level one spell for 1 charge; lightning bolt as 3 or 5* charges)?

*) The precedent for Staffs is one charge per spell level, but the normal cost would be 1, 3, 5 charges for spells of level 1, 2, 3 as usual.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
If the wand becomes too much of a problem remeber it's only a magical "twig". It can be stolen, malfunction, get damaged, destroyed, cursed, backfire..etc. There is really nothing you can't do in order to "balance" it for your game. You could even just change how often it recharges if it's being used too much.
I far prefer to do this changing before handing it out to my players, hence this thread :)

I take pride in trying not to nerf or destroy powers once given.

Thank you,
 

pukunui

Legend
*) Not necessarily a wand, since I don't want to have a "this wand works differently than all the rest" discussion...
Ah, but there is already precedence for this. That is, there are two different versions of the wand of magic missile in D&D 5e.

There is the DMG version, which lets you potentially use up all of its 7 charges in one go.

Then there is the Starter Set version, which only lets you use up to 3 charges at a time.

You could call the latter a "lesser" wand, if you want. Why not do something similar with a wand of lightning bolts? Just say you can't ever use more than 1 charge at a time. Or go with the Starter Set precedent and only let them beef up to a 5th level version of the spell.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Going nova during a wilderness trek is much more reasonable than when you're assaulting a dungeon, for instance.
In your games, sure. In my games the players always cautiously mete out their limited resources, even if they think they are probably only having one or two encounters before getting to recharge, because they know they might be wrong and something unexpected could happen that they don't want to be too low on resources to deal with.
Attunement is not a cost at low levels, because it is unlikely a character has accumulated more than three significant items that early.
That makes about as much sense as saying that the wand in question isn't overpowered because it is unlikely a character has acquired it at such a low level - since according to the magic item tables presented in the DMG there is a 0.03% chance the wand is rolled as part of a CR 0-4 treasure hoard, and a 0.04% chance it is rolled as part of a CR 5-10 treasure hoard.

Attunement is a cost, even at low levels, because with that attunement comes the fact that the party spellcaster much choose between using the wand as their action or using their action for something which might be more relevant to the situation at hand, and no one else can just grab the wand and use it because they don't have something better to do with their action either.

What makes it feel like it isn't a cost? That'd have to be something going on in your game specifically, and it is definitely something you can change if you want since attunement always feels like a cost in my campaigns.

As for the scroll suggestion, I sincerely hope you would be much more excited about finding this wand than a scroll of LB.
Finding the wand as it exists in the DMG, that'd be more exciting than finding a scroll. Finding your version? Not so much since it is 1 lightning bolt at minimum potential and with a save DC that might actually be lower than my own in just a few levels, and it might only be every few days that I can cast it, so for most cases I am better off using the scroll to add the spell to my spellbook, keeping it prepared, and casting it whenever it happens to be useful - leaving aside that seeing my DM being afraid that the game is going to "break" under very light stress would likely shake my confidence in the DM being able to provide the game I am looking to play.

What do you think of the item itself, Aaron? Am I too stingy?
I think you are clinging to a power level established by some prior version of D&D, or some other source besides the 5th edition books, and as a result are seeing things which are working perfectly fine and as intended (magic items are meant to feel like a bonus, and wands are meant to have enough of "oomph" to make spending their charges tempting enough that it actually happens, including that very last slightly risky one) as warning flags of "overpowered" or "broken" nature.

You are concerned about how many lightning bolts a 5th level party can fling at their enemies, and are completely missing that lightning bolt is not the answer to every problem, and when it is the answer there is nothing wrong with the party being able to provide said answer.

Should I transform it into a staff, perhaps allowing you to cast several lightning-themed spells (a level one spell for 1 charge; lightning bolt as 3 or 5* charges)?
Should you? Not unless you would actually be okay with the party having a staff that is even more potent than the wand you are already stressing over unnecessarily.

What you should do, in my opinion, is relax a bit and let 5th edition be 5th edition - and save the freaking and tweaking for if your players express that they think it would be more fun to have their magic items be staggeringly less potent than those presented in the DMG (which are, in general, less potent than magic items of prior editions to start with).
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Your view amazes me Aaron.

Handing out a regular Wand of Lightning Bolt at levels 4-5* seems crazily mind-staggeringly overpowered to me.

"lightning bolt is not the answer to every problem"... no, but when you are lost in the Underdark, it is the answer to very many problems indeed.

"when it is the answer there is nothing wrong with the party being able to provide said answer" said he, completely ignoring the fact it isn't the "party" that is providing said answer, it is always one and the same party member. Aaron, when I speak of balance and overpoweredness, I am always thinking of intra-party balance; the combat balance between party members. If I wanted to just kill off the party I can easily do so, even if they all sport Wand of Meteor Swarm.


*) I hope you remember this is what we're talking about. I want to give them Lightning Bolt at, or slightly before, the level they would otherwise get it themselves. Why: because this is where you get excited about them Bolts! So the DMG percentages really don't apply: I don't want an item where it is appropriate almost no level 5 parties would ever get it! That's the entire reason for this thread, to tone down the DMG item to be useable for a party of the indicated level :)
 

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