Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
Recently in this thread(x) the realization came to light that a Bloodstorm Blade functions much better in a Gestalt game because of the fact that the class iteslf does not advance initiator level or provide any additional maneuvers, but if you can take Warblade levels at the same time you're getting more fuel for your big axe cannon.
Some classes just seem to benefit exceptionally from Gestalt Rules (Many going from a status of neigh unplayable to powerful class augmentation) and I was curious how many fall into this category. So in list form, the ones I've thought of so far.
Core
Arcane Archer: This class stinks, there's the odd trick it's been used for but with Gestalt the fact is you can enter it by 7th level and continue to advance casting alongside it, making the Imbue Arrow ability quite neat (which you'd normally just dip 2 levels for) and otherwise becoming a quite effective archer gish.
Dragon Disciple: Similar to Arcane Archer this PRC doesn't lend much to the classes required to get into it. It makes for a somewhat interesting melee boost but doesn't provide full BAB or any spell casting so it's easy to ignore. In Gestalt you can pair up with Sorc progression while you take all your non-Dragon Disciple levels and make sure you max out your BAB. End result is a lot of powerfull buffs, high base stats, plenty of immunities and one brutally effective melee gish.
Hierophant: This is another of those Core classes that doesn't get spellcasting in spite of needing it for entry, to make matters worse it's basically just a casting PRC. It normally stinks, but in Gestalt? It can be comperable to Archmage.
Non-Core
Bloodstorm Blade: From Tome of Battle, this class is fairly effective without Gestalt but gains a lot of power when advacing Warblade at the same time. It's two non-caster classes so some people will cry "FAIL" however if the game's generally meant to be about inventive characters rather than god like gestalts, it's pretty good.
Geomancer: Complete Divine thought it would be a good idea to have something like a Theurge that wasn't as good. In non-gestalt you need to give up three caster levels to get into this, it will only really be useful for giving a few tricks to one of your casting classes and sets you back way too much to be worth it. It's nice in gestalt as you can enter without losing any caster levels. Example would be Wizard|Druid 3/Geomancer|Druid, with Geomancer advancing Wizard. It just becomes a full casting PrC with a few features, in fact, only one you can enter (IIRC) very early.
Master of Many Forms: Complete adventure printed this lump of garbage (it really doesn't do much of anything just continuing to be a Druid wouldn't by giving you Shapechange, but if you can still boost casting alongside it? Sure!) You can get all those nice Wildshape options without giving up any of your full Druid casting. Of course, you have to compare it to Druid|Whatever.
Master of the Unseen Hand: From Complete Warrior, advancing additional caster levels while taking Master of the Unseen Hand levels will up your effective caster level for Telekenesis into the stratosphere rapidly (15 by level 12). On top of that you won't stop being good at using other spell options, which is a serious plus.
Warshaper: Complete Warrior also gives us this great PRC for improving shapeshift abilities that doesn't further progress the class that provides those abilities. As a Druid or Transmutation focused Arcane Caster this PRC is even more devestating than it otherwise might be.
War Hulk: From Mini HB becomes downright scary when allowed to pair with a melee class that also advances full BAB especially something like Barbarian which will pump your Str even more.
Originally posted by piggyknowles:
Honestly, if I were playing a gestalt game involving Bloodstorm Blade, I'd probably go with an aeshkrau illumian, Wu Jen on one side, Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade on the other, for Giant Size + Str SAD fun.
Soulbow is another class that becomes a lot more interesting as a gestalt.
Originally posted by draco1119:
HOW DID YOU FORGET WAR HULK?!
Originally posted by StevenO:
Depending on what level you are starting at I'd say there are a lot of "monster" levels and LA that can become very useful depending on how they are incorperated into gestalt. They may not be "PrCs" but if you can take racial HD and LA on one side of a gestalt equation and REAL class levels on the other you get a whole lot of playable things.
You mention putting Dragon Disciple on one side of a gestalt equation but what if you can just put the normal Half-Dragon template's +3 LA up with a real class level? LA doesn't give you HD, skill, BAB, saves, or really much of anythig level based BUT if you get to pick up all of those things from a class level that LA is golden.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
No Time To Think (Ex)?
...
...
Sorry.
Seriously, though, there's no need to shout. The reason Andarious' builds in my sig are as simple as they are is because he kept a minimal library on hand (typically just the PHB and ToB, as I recall); anything more complex than that came from the rest of the group.
That said, yeah, War Hulk's a good gestalt component, provided you don't need anything that No Time To Think would destroy, and that you qualify (Large size and Cleave aren't exactly super-prevalent).
Expanding on Steven's, I'd say look to the savage progressions articles, which allow templates to be applied level-by-level (and unlike full monster HD, you can leave the template's progression behind once you've got what you want). Ghost is a perennial favorite here (2 levels gives at-will Telekinesis with CL = HD (minimum 12), along with incorporeality and the ability to go fully ethereal any time you wish. That's pretty damn good on a Cha-based caster, for instance, and if you can keep your full normal casting ability from the other "side" of the gestalt, it becomes even better. Similarly, even the lycanthrope templates work well in this setting - normally, they eat up a lot of effective character levels, but in a gestalt context they amount to inexpensive (if slightly less than ideal) shapechanging and a whack of ability score bonuses without the complexity of spellcasting (which, though not ideal, is appealing to many players). Lich or Vampire templates also come to mind, since now they can be applied without loss of spellcasting themselves - and in some cases they can actually lend their own "oomph" to a relatively underpowered class that would otherwise benefit from it but would never consider the template on its own merits. (Lich Duskblade channelling spells into a naturally paralyzing touch, for instance).
EDIT: Of course, something else just hit me: Templates like this also open up room for type-changing, and if you combine that with gestalt you open up a world of new combination abilities. The obvious ones involve using type-based prestige classes combined with PC base classes, but the less obvious ones are using the abilities of the new type to cover for weaknesses in both sides of further gestalts. For example, if you're Undead, all current and future HD are converted to d12s, so you can gestalt d4//d4 HD classes and still walk away with the highest possible HP from rolls in the game.
Mentioning Ghost reminds me: There are a couple other "typically needs a spellcaster to enter, but doesn't advance casting" classes out there besides the Dragon Disciple or Arcane Archer. Two perennial favorites are the Warshaper (although this is usually handled with a changeling or a less magical shapeshift, like the Bear Warrior's) and the Master of the Unseen Hand. Gestalting these with the casting classes they would otherwise forsake can provide a stronger gish (or pseudogish, in the case of the MotUH's telekinesis) structure from which to build.
Finally, consider ANY other case where going into a PrC gives up something from the base class. One example from my sig is Wand Overdrive, which uses Legacy Trickster stunts to advance Cannith Wand Adept, eventually giving wands with sky-high DCs / CLs ... at the expense of not advancing Artificer (arguably the strongest base class, ignoring variants like the psi arty or the spell-to-power erudite). Imagine that build with full artificer powers on the other "side", getting full benefit from the advancement's effects since artificers still make damn good wand users anyway. (You even have enough wiggle room in the first seven levels or so to squeeze in other classes to taste, though I'm not sure what would pair up well here.)
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
War Hulk's a good catch, totally forgot it. The problem is with most of these you're talking about classes that are damn near unplayable in many situations. Master of the Unseen Hand though I can kick myself for not thinking of.
I was intentionally ignoring LA and HD because I've never seen official Gestalt rulings on how to handle those things. Does LA only count to one side?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I just noticed you slipping in the War Hulk. Might it be worth mentioning that in Gestalt, you can actually "cheat" a bit with the Bruce Banner stunt? Qualify for War Hulk via something like Mountain Rage or Bear Warrior (i.e. you're Medium when not raging, but Large when raging), and you can turn on and off the War Hulk's No Time To Think ability as you see fit. Since you're gestalting with Barbarian, this won't really slow down your rage progression either, so instead of two Extra Rages you only need one, and it can eventually be retrained. In effect, War Hulk can be viewed as a massive enhancement to your Rage ability, in much the same way Bear Form is, rather than a burden you have to carry.
Plus it opens up the possibility of playing a very erudite fellow when he's not on the clock. (Yes, that is a monocle.)
For raw templates, it's completely silent. For progressions (either in Savage Species or in the Savage Progressions template articles), it's all but explicit that a level adjustment can be used interchangeably with a "level", albeit a level that doesn't provide anything except features (i.e. no HD increase (and thus it doesn't count for when feats or ability increases come online, nor for all those "DC 10 + half level + [score]" abilities), HP, base attack, saves, or skill points).
In other words, a half giant gestalt would still need to begin play at ECL 2 (as per the level adjustment rules), but might very well be, say, a Fighter 2 // [LA+1] / Psywar 1.
Originally posted by StevenO:
If you consider that playing a Minotaur (ECL 8) is considered equivalent to a Barbarian 8 I see no reason you wouldn't could HD and LA on one side of the equation. Honestly, I don't even see a reason you couldn't count racial HD and LA sperately allowing allowing you to play a gestalt monster even earlier as you put racial HD on one side and LA on the other; this would mean that in a gestal campaign you should be able to play a Minotaur as a MonstrousHumanoid6//+2LA/Barbarian4 as a 6th-level character when you normally couldn't start it until 8th level.
As Tempest mentions the Savage Species progressions are basically just "classes" that happen to have "level" in them which don't grant HD (and the things that come with HD) to account for the LA such a creature would normally have.
As for how you "officially" would handle it that is really going to be up to the DM. I mean the gestalt rules already hand lots of things over the the DM to rule on such as which classes could/should be permitted and which classes should be BANNED from using gestalt. After all, do you really want to see a Wizard/ArcaneHeirphant//Druid/MysticTheruge running arroung?
Originally posted by piggyknowles:
What about Metamind and Psion Uncarnate? (For that matter, even Pyrokineticist becomes a lot more fun when there's a PsyWar or Wilder on the other side of it...)
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Originally posted by StevenO:
But are all "dual progression" PrCs so clearly labelled? This is where I'm saying the "official" gestalt rules already require on DM interpretation. Perhaps AH and MT are clearly "dual progress PrCs" but what about something like Arcane Trickster, Unseen Seer, Spellsword, or Abjurant Champion?
Most of the time I'd say a gestalt character is going to end up looking like some kind of "super gish" with full spellcasting (or nearly full) of at least one type and then a whole host of other abilities.
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
My ruling on this if I ever run a gestalt game is that you can use any class, but if a class grants casting (or Psionics etc) then you can only advance each class one such feature from each class (basically you can take Arcane Hierophant but it will change from an AND to an OR for spell casting). Non-casting features I honestly don't think enough of them are really dangerous to limit. 20d6 SA? Meh...
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Originally posted by draco1119:
I'd do something with a half-casting class like Rage Mage or Bladesinger. Another thought would be something like Warblade 20 // Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Revenant Blade 5/Champion of Corellon 10
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
Or Draco you could use Frenzied Berserker instead of CoC...
Originally posted by daedhaed:
I'd wanna build a gestalt "Hood". Warblade on one side and some frenzied Berserker with either diopsid or revenant blade with all the best ubercharger feats and equipment.
Edit: Ninja'd on the FB.
Originally posted by StevenO:
Oops. My bad.
Frankly, MT can become rather crazy when allowed all by itself. Sure you technically can't advance spellcasting of a single type mutliple ways the same level but if you take levels in MT then you get to advance arcane and divine casting all with one class while having the other open for other things.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
As someone playing a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Thurge/Druid/Arcane Hirophant in their current Gestalt game, hello there. Now, the game I'm playing it in is Pathfinder so it's not quite as broken open as it could be, but I understand how that combo would be a god killer in a 3.5 game with no effort at all.
I second the idea of partial casting classes having a lot more to give in a getsalt setting than normal. Being able to pick up good abilities that would otherwise be locked behind levels of unappealing dead class progression either in the class itself or it's qualifying process. Master Transmogrifist, Nature's Warrior, Fochlucan Lyrist, and Master of Many Forms are all much more promising prestige classes under the Gestalt rules.
With regards to monstrous HD and LA, the system I've wanted to try is that you half the Level Adjustment and you can "gestalt" racial HD with themselves to essentially level twice. eg. A level 4 Monstrous Humanoid/Monstrous Humanoid "gestalt" with no Level Adjustment would have feats, skills, ect of an 8th level character. In that system, the benefits of otherwise poor monster hit dice is that you receive lots of them, though there is doubtlessly a way to break that houserule to tiny pieces.
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Are there less broken spells in Pathfinder? Not really sure why that makes a big difference.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I'm not sure what you are saying there.
The way I understand gestalt is that you may gain the features from both sides of the equation but you only get the HD related stuff (BAB, save, hp, skill) from one side. Having monstrous humanoid//MH still leaves you with the skills and feats of a 4th level character.
I've said all this before but I see two basic ways to apply gestalt to monsters: RHD/LA//class or RHD/class//LA/class. Which would/could be used will depend on your starting level.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Yes. Spells are less broken and there's a hell of a lot less of them. Where in 3.5 I could basically no-save-kill everyone in 3 rounds with common spells and construct a nigh impenetrable set of defenses to just wander around with, Pathfinder edited a LOT of spells down in power and put a real effort into clarifying and patching rules that would otherwise break things to no end.
It's not genius proof, but considering the buffs that non-casting classes got and the nerfs that spellcasters got, I have a hard time putting enough buffs on other party members or debuffs on enemies that combat is a challenge for my character. (Especially since my Optimization Fu when selecting my spells per day is limited.) Since both other party members are essentially sneak attack based, my shining moments of glory are when we have to fight Oozes, Elementals, or Swarms (only creatures auto-immune to Sneak Attack) or when someone needs a specific spell effect out of combat. Otherwise I lounge at the back while the Optimized Alchemist is throwing out *checks sheet* 252 +141d6 +4d8 damage +20 points of Strength damage on flying Charge/Pounce/Skirmish routine.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
What I'm saying is that Normally when Gestalting you take the superior abilities from both classes. In that case for levels (experience point wise) that you'd think of Monster HD/Monster HD you instead level like you would in a normal game twice.
So a level 4 Humanoid/Humanoid level 1 Barbarian/Wizard would have 9 Hit Dice (rather than 5), class skill maxes at 12 (rather than 8), 4 feats (rather than 2) and so on.
A good way to visualize it would be like this
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Vortsukoto, what you're suggesting is giving both the racial HD instead of just the best one, right?
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
What he's suggesting is that instead of a gestalt level you can take two racial HD at once. Basically gianing two levels at once in the theory that those levels are significantly weaker than other levels would be.
The problem there is stuff like Nymph (and there are far crazier examples but I'm being lazy), which at level 7 will have 6 Fey HD, 1 class level and be able to cast spells as a level 7 Druid. Add to that the rediculously good ability modifiers and potent EX and SU abilities, and it's kind of silly, even by gestalt standards.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Originally posted by StevenO:
I'd say that really doesn't work on any level.
You're saying I could play a straight up Very Young Gold Dragon as a 8th-level Gestalt character yet let if have its 11 HD, +11 BAB, +7 base saves while a normal 8th-level gestalt could at best have a +8 BAB, 8 HD,and +6 base save bonus. Oh, and that dragon would get its 84+ skill points vs the normal characters 64+ point max.
Many racial HD may be "weak" compared to normal class levels but allowing a gestalt character to double up on them is really too much.
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Even considering the possibility, you'd at least have to limit it to the racial Hit Dice with weaker HD features. Maybe just the +1 CR per 4 HD ones listed here (the table basically sorts the HD by the quality of their features, though animal and fey HD push at the dividing line).
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Yeah, I guess it's a semi-viable idea but requires a bit too much "work with your players" to consider as any hard and fast rule.
I'd come up with it as part of brainstorming how to make racial HD slightly more appealing in a meta-game setting where you could basically Cleric/Wizard into the prestige classes of your choice and laugh as you crushed the world underfoot. The advantages that I was seeing would be that while the monster PC lacks the class abilities and skill point per level of other players, they would benefit from more robust hit point, saves, and overall resiliency from a larger number of Hit Dice.
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Just realized that gestalt martial adepts gain 1.5 IL at each and every level. If both sides are adept then they gain 2 IL. That will allow them to access higher lvl maneuvers like Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose significantly sooner. Nuts. Also casting classes can prestige and then advance their base class on the other side after words thus casting at significantly faster. Especially if the uber cheesy single class wizard Ultimate Magus is permitted also. Also, mystic thuerge with the casting classes alternated on the other side. Geez if you run gestalt you really have to keep a tight reign on what can and can't be taken.
Originally posted by draco1119:
How about Alchemical Savant from Magic of Eberron? Make one side Arty 20, with the other side fighter/rogue/Alchemical Savant so you can do weird things like Power Sneak Attack with a Black Tentacles/Alchemical Frost combo?
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Not anywhere near as familiar with that as I've never played an arty or anything from ebberon really but it sounds busted.
Originally posted by StevenO:
Just like you should have a spellcasting level higher than your character level you shouldn't have an initiator level higher than your character level. A Warblade8//Crusader8 should only have an IL of 8 for each class instead of 12. If you had a Warblade9//Crusader1/Wiz4/AbC4 you should have an IL 9 in Warblade, IL 5 in Crusader, and of course your casting as an 8th-level wizard.
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
I would definately say that each level checks weather it's an initiator level or not, just like it checks your HD type, saves and BAB. It would not count as being higher level for purposes of IL.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
The reason why you don't gain more than one, say, warblade IL every time you take a warblade//swordsage gestalt is because every warblade//swordsage level is not a level of warblade and a level of swordsage, but a level of warblade//swordsage. Thus, it counts as a level of warblade when you calculate IL (which is your levels in warblade + half your levels that are not warblade).
Each gestalted level is not a separate level in two different classes, but is a single level in a gestalt composed of the properties of two different classes. That's why you don't get 1.5 IL per level.
If you want rapid IL, though, use Legacy Champion + Uncanny Trickster. Those advance your effective warblade level while still being non-warblade classes. I use this trick in the Gun Fu build in my signature as an example.
Originally posted by draco1119:
And to piggyback on Tempest's point: Bloodlines do the same thing, except that they increase the effective level of EVERY class you have. It's too hard to post a link from an iPhone, but searching for Hattori Hanzo in this forum will show a build that takes advantage of that for crafting purposes. It's not hard to apply it to initiator level, though: a Warblade 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5/ Bloodclaw Adept 5 (just an example) with a Minor Bloodline would have an initiator level of 23.
Originally posted by daedhaed:
But non of that is especially stated in the gestalt rules so as per RAW it can get real nuts. Especially with casters having caster levels above total HD.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
Actually, it kind of is.
Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Also
Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.
Full initiator progression > half initiation progression, so they don't stack (any more than two classes with Improved Uncanny Dodge stack for required rogue level to flank).
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Fair enough. You got me on IL. But you still gain the caster levels right? Say one side is wizard 20 and the other side is x5/ incantatrix 10/ Halruan elder 5 you would have caster level and spellcasting capabilities of a 35th level wizard right?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
Nope, same idea. Both classes advance wizard casting by 1, so you take the best (and advance by 1).
Strictly speaking, gestalting Rogue // Sneak Attack Fighter at level 1 gives you 1d6 sneak attack.
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
In theory however silly it may sound it's arguable however that Rogue//Ninja at 1 gives you 1 Each SA and SS, and then at 2 if you go Rogue//SA Fighter one might argue you get SA at every level by progressing as such. A DM may hit you with at least one book for making this arguement.
Recently in this thread(x) the realization came to light that a Bloodstorm Blade functions much better in a Gestalt game because of the fact that the class iteslf does not advance initiator level or provide any additional maneuvers, but if you can take Warblade levels at the same time you're getting more fuel for your big axe cannon.
Some classes just seem to benefit exceptionally from Gestalt Rules (Many going from a status of neigh unplayable to powerful class augmentation) and I was curious how many fall into this category. So in list form, the ones I've thought of so far.
Core
Arcane Archer: This class stinks, there's the odd trick it's been used for but with Gestalt the fact is you can enter it by 7th level and continue to advance casting alongside it, making the Imbue Arrow ability quite neat (which you'd normally just dip 2 levels for) and otherwise becoming a quite effective archer gish.
Dragon Disciple: Similar to Arcane Archer this PRC doesn't lend much to the classes required to get into it. It makes for a somewhat interesting melee boost but doesn't provide full BAB or any spell casting so it's easy to ignore. In Gestalt you can pair up with Sorc progression while you take all your non-Dragon Disciple levels and make sure you max out your BAB. End result is a lot of powerfull buffs, high base stats, plenty of immunities and one brutally effective melee gish.
Hierophant: This is another of those Core classes that doesn't get spellcasting in spite of needing it for entry, to make matters worse it's basically just a casting PRC. It normally stinks, but in Gestalt? It can be comperable to Archmage.
Non-Core
Bloodstorm Blade: From Tome of Battle, this class is fairly effective without Gestalt but gains a lot of power when advacing Warblade at the same time. It's two non-caster classes so some people will cry "FAIL" however if the game's generally meant to be about inventive characters rather than god like gestalts, it's pretty good.
Geomancer: Complete Divine thought it would be a good idea to have something like a Theurge that wasn't as good. In non-gestalt you need to give up three caster levels to get into this, it will only really be useful for giving a few tricks to one of your casting classes and sets you back way too much to be worth it. It's nice in gestalt as you can enter without losing any caster levels. Example would be Wizard|Druid 3/Geomancer|Druid, with Geomancer advancing Wizard. It just becomes a full casting PrC with a few features, in fact, only one you can enter (IIRC) very early.
Master of Many Forms: Complete adventure printed this lump of garbage (it really doesn't do much of anything just continuing to be a Druid wouldn't by giving you Shapechange, but if you can still boost casting alongside it? Sure!) You can get all those nice Wildshape options without giving up any of your full Druid casting. Of course, you have to compare it to Druid|Whatever.
Master of the Unseen Hand: From Complete Warrior, advancing additional caster levels while taking Master of the Unseen Hand levels will up your effective caster level for Telekenesis into the stratosphere rapidly (15 by level 12). On top of that you won't stop being good at using other spell options, which is a serious plus.
Warshaper: Complete Warrior also gives us this great PRC for improving shapeshift abilities that doesn't further progress the class that provides those abilities. As a Druid or Transmutation focused Arcane Caster this PRC is even more devestating than it otherwise might be.
War Hulk: From Mini HB becomes downright scary when allowed to pair with a melee class that also advances full BAB especially something like Barbarian which will pump your Str even more.
Originally posted by piggyknowles:
Honestly, if I were playing a gestalt game involving Bloodstorm Blade, I'd probably go with an aeshkrau illumian, Wu Jen on one side, Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade on the other, for Giant Size + Str SAD fun.
Soulbow is another class that becomes a lot more interesting as a gestalt.
Originally posted by draco1119:
HOW DID YOU FORGET WAR HULK?!
Originally posted by StevenO:
Depending on what level you are starting at I'd say there are a lot of "monster" levels and LA that can become very useful depending on how they are incorperated into gestalt. They may not be "PrCs" but if you can take racial HD and LA on one side of a gestalt equation and REAL class levels on the other you get a whole lot of playable things.
You mention putting Dragon Disciple on one side of a gestalt equation but what if you can just put the normal Half-Dragon template's +3 LA up with a real class level? LA doesn't give you HD, skill, BAB, saves, or really much of anythig level based BUT if you get to pick up all of those things from a class level that LA is golden.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
No Time To Think (Ex)?
...
...
Sorry.
Seriously, though, there's no need to shout. The reason Andarious' builds in my sig are as simple as they are is because he kept a minimal library on hand (typically just the PHB and ToB, as I recall); anything more complex than that came from the rest of the group.
That said, yeah, War Hulk's a good gestalt component, provided you don't need anything that No Time To Think would destroy, and that you qualify (Large size and Cleave aren't exactly super-prevalent).
Expanding on Steven's, I'd say look to the savage progressions articles, which allow templates to be applied level-by-level (and unlike full monster HD, you can leave the template's progression behind once you've got what you want). Ghost is a perennial favorite here (2 levels gives at-will Telekinesis with CL = HD (minimum 12), along with incorporeality and the ability to go fully ethereal any time you wish. That's pretty damn good on a Cha-based caster, for instance, and if you can keep your full normal casting ability from the other "side" of the gestalt, it becomes even better. Similarly, even the lycanthrope templates work well in this setting - normally, they eat up a lot of effective character levels, but in a gestalt context they amount to inexpensive (if slightly less than ideal) shapechanging and a whack of ability score bonuses without the complexity of spellcasting (which, though not ideal, is appealing to many players). Lich or Vampire templates also come to mind, since now they can be applied without loss of spellcasting themselves - and in some cases they can actually lend their own "oomph" to a relatively underpowered class that would otherwise benefit from it but would never consider the template on its own merits. (Lich Duskblade channelling spells into a naturally paralyzing touch, for instance).
EDIT: Of course, something else just hit me: Templates like this also open up room for type-changing, and if you combine that with gestalt you open up a world of new combination abilities. The obvious ones involve using type-based prestige classes combined with PC base classes, but the less obvious ones are using the abilities of the new type to cover for weaknesses in both sides of further gestalts. For example, if you're Undead, all current and future HD are converted to d12s, so you can gestalt d4//d4 HD classes and still walk away with the highest possible HP from rolls in the game.
Mentioning Ghost reminds me: There are a couple other "typically needs a spellcaster to enter, but doesn't advance casting" classes out there besides the Dragon Disciple or Arcane Archer. Two perennial favorites are the Warshaper (although this is usually handled with a changeling or a less magical shapeshift, like the Bear Warrior's) and the Master of the Unseen Hand. Gestalting these with the casting classes they would otherwise forsake can provide a stronger gish (or pseudogish, in the case of the MotUH's telekinesis) structure from which to build.
Finally, consider ANY other case where going into a PrC gives up something from the base class. One example from my sig is Wand Overdrive, which uses Legacy Trickster stunts to advance Cannith Wand Adept, eventually giving wands with sky-high DCs / CLs ... at the expense of not advancing Artificer (arguably the strongest base class, ignoring variants like the psi arty or the spell-to-power erudite). Imagine that build with full artificer powers on the other "side", getting full benefit from the advancement's effects since artificers still make damn good wand users anyway. (You even have enough wiggle room in the first seven levels or so to squeeze in other classes to taste, though I'm not sure what would pair up well here.)
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
War Hulk's a good catch, totally forgot it. The problem is with most of these you're talking about classes that are damn near unplayable in many situations. Master of the Unseen Hand though I can kick myself for not thinking of.
I was intentionally ignoring LA and HD because I've never seen official Gestalt rulings on how to handle those things. Does LA only count to one side?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I just noticed you slipping in the War Hulk. Might it be worth mentioning that in Gestalt, you can actually "cheat" a bit with the Bruce Banner stunt? Qualify for War Hulk via something like Mountain Rage or Bear Warrior (i.e. you're Medium when not raging, but Large when raging), and you can turn on and off the War Hulk's No Time To Think ability as you see fit. Since you're gestalting with Barbarian, this won't really slow down your rage progression either, so instead of two Extra Rages you only need one, and it can eventually be retrained. In effect, War Hulk can be viewed as a massive enhancement to your Rage ability, in much the same way Bear Form is, rather than a burden you have to carry.
Plus it opens up the possibility of playing a very erudite fellow when he's not on the clock. (Yes, that is a monocle.)
For raw templates, it's completely silent. For progressions (either in Savage Species or in the Savage Progressions template articles), it's all but explicit that a level adjustment can be used interchangeably with a "level", albeit a level that doesn't provide anything except features (i.e. no HD increase (and thus it doesn't count for when feats or ability increases come online, nor for all those "DC 10 + half level + [score]" abilities), HP, base attack, saves, or skill points).
In other words, a half giant gestalt would still need to begin play at ECL 2 (as per the level adjustment rules), but might very well be, say, a Fighter 2 // [LA+1] / Psywar 1.
Originally posted by StevenO:
If you consider that playing a Minotaur (ECL 8) is considered equivalent to a Barbarian 8 I see no reason you wouldn't could HD and LA on one side of the equation. Honestly, I don't even see a reason you couldn't count racial HD and LA sperately allowing allowing you to play a gestalt monster even earlier as you put racial HD on one side and LA on the other; this would mean that in a gestal campaign you should be able to play a Minotaur as a MonstrousHumanoid6//+2LA/Barbarian4 as a 6th-level character when you normally couldn't start it until 8th level.
As Tempest mentions the Savage Species progressions are basically just "classes" that happen to have "level" in them which don't grant HD (and the things that come with HD) to account for the LA such a creature would normally have.
As for how you "officially" would handle it that is really going to be up to the DM. I mean the gestalt rules already hand lots of things over the the DM to rule on such as which classes could/should be permitted and which classes should be BANNED from using gestalt. After all, do you really want to see a Wizard/ArcaneHeirphant//Druid/MysticTheruge running arroung?
Originally posted by piggyknowles:
What about Metamind and Psion Uncarnate? (For that matter, even Pyrokineticist becomes a lot more fun when there's a PsyWar or Wilder on the other side of it...)
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Luckily you can't dual progress PrCs with gestalt or that character would be super busted. It'd be even worse if the divine side was archivist instead.
Originally posted by StevenO:
But are all "dual progression" PrCs so clearly labelled? This is where I'm saying the "official" gestalt rules already require on DM interpretation. Perhaps AH and MT are clearly "dual progress PrCs" but what about something like Arcane Trickster, Unseen Seer, Spellsword, or Abjurant Champion?
Most of the time I'd say a gestalt character is going to end up looking like some kind of "super gish" with full spellcasting (or nearly full) of at least one type and then a whole host of other abilities.
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
My ruling on this if I ever run a gestalt game is that you can use any class, but if a class grants casting (or Psionics etc) then you can only advance each class one such feature from each class (basically you can take Arcane Hierophant but it will change from an AND to an OR for spell casting). Non-casting features I honestly don't think enough of them are really dangerous to limit. 20d6 SA? Meh...
Originally posted by daedhaed:
I was actually referring to taking 2 PrCs at once. If you could do that AH and MT being taken simultaneously would be insane.
Originally posted by draco1119:
I'd do something with a half-casting class like Rage Mage or Bladesinger. Another thought would be something like Warblade 20 // Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Revenant Blade 5/Champion of Corellon 10
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
Or Draco you could use Frenzied Berserker instead of CoC...
Originally posted by daedhaed:
I'd wanna build a gestalt "Hood". Warblade on one side and some frenzied Berserker with either diopsid or revenant blade with all the best ubercharger feats and equipment.
Edit: Ninja'd on the FB.
Originally posted by StevenO:
Oops. My bad.
Frankly, MT can become rather crazy when allowed all by itself. Sure you technically can't advance spellcasting of a single type mutliple ways the same level but if you take levels in MT then you get to advance arcane and divine casting all with one class while having the other open for other things.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
As someone playing a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Thurge/Druid/Arcane Hirophant in their current Gestalt game, hello there. Now, the game I'm playing it in is Pathfinder so it's not quite as broken open as it could be, but I understand how that combo would be a god killer in a 3.5 game with no effort at all.
I second the idea of partial casting classes having a lot more to give in a getsalt setting than normal. Being able to pick up good abilities that would otherwise be locked behind levels of unappealing dead class progression either in the class itself or it's qualifying process. Master Transmogrifist, Nature's Warrior, Fochlucan Lyrist, and Master of Many Forms are all much more promising prestige classes under the Gestalt rules.
With regards to monstrous HD and LA, the system I've wanted to try is that you half the Level Adjustment and you can "gestalt" racial HD with themselves to essentially level twice. eg. A level 4 Monstrous Humanoid/Monstrous Humanoid "gestalt" with no Level Adjustment would have feats, skills, ect of an 8th level character. In that system, the benefits of otherwise poor monster hit dice is that you receive lots of them, though there is doubtlessly a way to break that houserule to tiny pieces.
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Are there less broken spells in Pathfinder? Not really sure why that makes a big difference.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I'm not sure what you are saying there.
The way I understand gestalt is that you may gain the features from both sides of the equation but you only get the HD related stuff (BAB, save, hp, skill) from one side. Having monstrous humanoid//MH still leaves you with the skills and feats of a 4th level character.
I've said all this before but I see two basic ways to apply gestalt to monsters: RHD/LA//class or RHD/class//LA/class. Which would/could be used will depend on your starting level.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Yes. Spells are less broken and there's a hell of a lot less of them. Where in 3.5 I could basically no-save-kill everyone in 3 rounds with common spells and construct a nigh impenetrable set of defenses to just wander around with, Pathfinder edited a LOT of spells down in power and put a real effort into clarifying and patching rules that would otherwise break things to no end.
It's not genius proof, but considering the buffs that non-casting classes got and the nerfs that spellcasters got, I have a hard time putting enough buffs on other party members or debuffs on enemies that combat is a challenge for my character. (Especially since my Optimization Fu when selecting my spells per day is limited.) Since both other party members are essentially sneak attack based, my shining moments of glory are when we have to fight Oozes, Elementals, or Swarms (only creatures auto-immune to Sneak Attack) or when someone needs a specific spell effect out of combat. Otherwise I lounge at the back while the Optimized Alchemist is throwing out *checks sheet* 252 +141d6 +4d8 damage +20 points of Strength damage on flying Charge/Pounce/Skirmish routine.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
What I'm saying is that Normally when Gestalting you take the superior abilities from both classes. In that case for levels (experience point wise) that you'd think of Monster HD/Monster HD you instead level like you would in a normal game twice.
So a level 4 Humanoid/Humanoid level 1 Barbarian/Wizard would have 9 Hit Dice (rather than 5), class skill maxes at 12 (rather than 8), 4 feats (rather than 2) and so on.
A good way to visualize it would be like this
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Lame sauce. I like my casters to be busted.
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Vortsukoto, what you're suggesting is giving both the racial HD instead of just the best one, right?
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
What he's suggesting is that instead of a gestalt level you can take two racial HD at once. Basically gianing two levels at once in the theory that those levels are significantly weaker than other levels would be.
The problem there is stuff like Nymph (and there are far crazier examples but I'm being lazy), which at level 7 will have 6 Fey HD, 1 class level and be able to cast spells as a level 7 Druid. Add to that the rediculously good ability modifiers and potent EX and SU abilities, and it's kind of silly, even by gestalt standards.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Yes, basically. An ogre with no class levels in normal game would be the equivalent of a level 6 character. With this house rule, the same ogre is a level 3 character (+1 level adjustment and 2 "levels" of hit dice) with no change in it's statistics.
Yeah, the biggest break I'd seen so far are monster hit dice that actually impart class abilities; Couatls, Driders, Nymphs, and True Dragons are all good examples. They allow you to rush into spellcasting as fast, or faster than a normal spellcaster.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I'd say that really doesn't work on any level.
You're saying I could play a straight up Very Young Gold Dragon as a 8th-level Gestalt character yet let if have its 11 HD, +11 BAB, +7 base saves while a normal 8th-level gestalt could at best have a +8 BAB, 8 HD,and +6 base save bonus. Oh, and that dragon would get its 84+ skill points vs the normal characters 64+ point max.
Many racial HD may be "weak" compared to normal class levels but allowing a gestalt character to double up on them is really too much.
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Even considering the possibility, you'd at least have to limit it to the racial Hit Dice with weaker HD features. Maybe just the +1 CR per 4 HD ones listed here (the table basically sorts the HD by the quality of their features, though animal and fey HD push at the dividing line).
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Yeah, I guess it's a semi-viable idea but requires a bit too much "work with your players" to consider as any hard and fast rule.
I'd come up with it as part of brainstorming how to make racial HD slightly more appealing in a meta-game setting where you could basically Cleric/Wizard into the prestige classes of your choice and laugh as you crushed the world underfoot. The advantages that I was seeing would be that while the monster PC lacks the class abilities and skill point per level of other players, they would benefit from more robust hit point, saves, and overall resiliency from a larger number of Hit Dice.
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Just realized that gestalt martial adepts gain 1.5 IL at each and every level. If both sides are adept then they gain 2 IL. That will allow them to access higher lvl maneuvers like Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose significantly sooner. Nuts. Also casting classes can prestige and then advance their base class on the other side after words thus casting at significantly faster. Especially if the uber cheesy single class wizard Ultimate Magus is permitted also. Also, mystic thuerge with the casting classes alternated on the other side. Geez if you run gestalt you really have to keep a tight reign on what can and can't be taken.
Originally posted by draco1119:
How about Alchemical Savant from Magic of Eberron? Make one side Arty 20, with the other side fighter/rogue/Alchemical Savant so you can do weird things like Power Sneak Attack with a Black Tentacles/Alchemical Frost combo?
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Not anywhere near as familiar with that as I've never played an arty or anything from ebberon really but it sounds busted.
Originally posted by StevenO:
Just like you should have a spellcasting level higher than your character level you shouldn't have an initiator level higher than your character level. A Warblade8//Crusader8 should only have an IL of 8 for each class instead of 12. If you had a Warblade9//Crusader1/Wiz4/AbC4 you should have an IL 9 in Warblade, IL 5 in Crusader, and of course your casting as an 8th-level wizard.
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
I would definately say that each level checks weather it's an initiator level or not, just like it checks your HD type, saves and BAB. It would not count as being higher level for purposes of IL.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
The reason why you don't gain more than one, say, warblade IL every time you take a warblade//swordsage gestalt is because every warblade//swordsage level is not a level of warblade and a level of swordsage, but a level of warblade//swordsage. Thus, it counts as a level of warblade when you calculate IL (which is your levels in warblade + half your levels that are not warblade).
Each gestalted level is not a separate level in two different classes, but is a single level in a gestalt composed of the properties of two different classes. That's why you don't get 1.5 IL per level.
If you want rapid IL, though, use Legacy Champion + Uncanny Trickster. Those advance your effective warblade level while still being non-warblade classes. I use this trick in the Gun Fu build in my signature as an example.
Originally posted by draco1119:
And to piggyback on Tempest's point: Bloodlines do the same thing, except that they increase the effective level of EVERY class you have. It's too hard to post a link from an iPhone, but searching for Hattori Hanzo in this forum will show a build that takes advantage of that for crafting purposes. It's not hard to apply it to initiator level, though: a Warblade 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5/ Bloodclaw Adept 5 (just an example) with a Minor Bloodline would have an initiator level of 23.
Originally posted by daedhaed:
But non of that is especially stated in the gestalt rules so as per RAW it can get real nuts. Especially with casters having caster levels above total HD.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
Actually, it kind of is.
Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Also
Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.
Full initiator progression > half initiation progression, so they don't stack (any more than two classes with Improved Uncanny Dodge stack for required rogue level to flank).
Originally posted by daedhaed:
Fair enough. You got me on IL. But you still gain the caster levels right? Say one side is wizard 20 and the other side is x5/ incantatrix 10/ Halruan elder 5 you would have caster level and spellcasting capabilities of a 35th level wizard right?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
Nope, same idea. Both classes advance wizard casting by 1, so you take the best (and advance by 1).
Strictly speaking, gestalting Rogue // Sneak Attack Fighter at level 1 gives you 1d6 sneak attack.
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
In theory however silly it may sound it's arguable however that Rogue//Ninja at 1 gives you 1 Each SA and SS, and then at 2 if you go Rogue//SA Fighter one might argue you get SA at every level by progressing as such. A DM may hit you with at least one book for making this arguement.
