Originally posted by sowz:
Hey, all.
So far my build has, effectively, 282 diplomacy. 277 if you don't think that Visage of the Greater Deity gives the racial stat bonus of a Half-Celestial. 292 if I am willing to use DCFS and 3e feats that weren't carried over. (Explained below. Also, the Diploficer always take ten and does't take a -10 penalty for rushed on diplomacy checks.)
Build: Warlock 1/Binder 1/Marshal 1/Cleric 1 (Charm and Community Domain)/Artificer 16
Race: Old Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Half-Elf (24 Charisma. 34 With Tomes and levels.)
Flaws: Murkey Eyed, Non-combatant
Traits: Polite, Illiterate (For a +2 Diplomacy)
Feats: Complementary Insight, (Synergy bonus goes up to +3,) Celestion Scion-Cranden, Nymph's Kiss, Sacred Vow, Negotiator, Wild Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Item Familiar, Leadership, Obtain Familiar (Pig,) Skill Focus Diplomacy*, All the crafting feats plus Extra Rings/Attune Magic Weapon/the Artisan Feats* (I still have one feat left, too!) *Means I got it as a bonus feat
Magic Items: (Many of these items can be 1/day because they last so long. Regardless, well within a level 20 Characters WBL. Enough so we could buy extra items to consume to fuel the XP costs. But we shouldn't need to with the craft reserve.)
Charisma Boosters
Nixie's Grace, +8 Cha.
Devil's Ego, (Magic Item, Command Word, keep casting until +5)
Snowsong, +4 Cha.
Righteous Aura, +4 Cha.
Visage of the Greater Deity, +4 Cha
Diplomacy Boosters
+30 Diplomacy Item
Voice of the Dragon, +10
CL 15 Divine Insight, +20
CL 16 Improvisation, +8
Item of Friendly Face
Pendant of Joy +5 (Greater Heroism is smarter for a morale bonus in an opposed diplomacy situation.)
Binder lets me ignore the penalty for rushed diplomacy and lets me take ten on Diplomacy checks. Warlock gives me Beguiling Influence. Marshal let's me double the Charisma bonus on skill checks.
I wear Glamerweave for +2.
Total Charisma of 66, with +4 from Charm Cleric and my FoP cohort.
Final Tally: 23 Skill Ranks, +54 Charisma, +30 Competence, +23 Item Familiar, +20 Insight, +10 Enhancement (Voice of the Dragon,) +10 Circumstance (Artificer Infusion,) +9 Synergy, +8 Luck, +6 Warlock, +5 Morale, +3 Skill Focus, +3 Psicrystal, +3 Pig, +3 Untyped, +2 Negotiator, +2 Circumstance, +2 Racial, +2 Traits, +2 Glamerweave, +2 Community, +10 d20 roll, +10 when taking -10 for quick diplomacy
Now, here is where we go crazy. Take Leadership. My Cohort? I am going to try and attract a Half-Elf. The rules don't say I can attract templates or anything, though. So I won't do it. But I am going to encourage him to be a diplomancer. I will train him in the art of diplomancy. And I will let him use all my items, even making him his own +30 diplomacy ring cause I am so nice.
I can attract class. I'm attracting a Charisma Prodigy/Binder/Warlock/Fiend of Possession, Half-Elf Kaorti. While assuming the Evil subtype, he doesn't actually have to be evil. Assuming he has 13 Charisma, I am going to age him to Venerable. He might get pissed about it. Oh, well, I can calm him down cause he is a fanatic follower. So 24 Charisma. +4 from levels, +5 from Tome. 31. I can bring it up to 60 with all my gear and his dip coming up. He can give me +3 Cha, too!
Assuming he has max diplomacy ranks, skill focus, negotiator, and complementary insight, he will have a high bonus. He can take a level of Marshal, freeing up a feat slot. He can take Favored and Primary Contact for +1 skill rank. I am going to make him take a Sacred Vow and make out with my Nymph friend after he dips in Charm/Community Domain Cleric, (he will serve my god, now. Remember, this is TO. If his Cohort was this good, this is the highest theoretical Diplomacy if we do it right. Barring Jumplomancy and loops.) He will also take three levels in half-elf.
Also, he should dip a level in Psion. Take Psicrystal Affinity. +3. Wizard for a Pig Familiar is an easy +3 boost.
His build is Kaorti 4/Prodigy 2/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Marshal 1/Psion 1/Cleric 1/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Wizard 1/X (Free levels) 2
I teach him to make an item familiar. If he maxes it out, that is plus 17. Final score should be 266 on his Diplomacy, (268 with Glamerweave.) His aid another gives me +26, using the expert assistance rules.
I'm assuming LA Buyoff is a no-go. If it is not, yipee for us. We can be Charisma prodigy Half-Fey. That is an extra +10 Diplomacy! But let's not assume that, it breaks the rules.
ULTRA MUNCHKIN MODE
Show
[sblock]This uses the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle. It also throws a bunch of 3e feats into the mix. Anyway, our half-elf Cohort will take one level of Fighter and three of Artificer, giving us four lovely feats to play with. Trustworthy, Persuasive, and Alluring. Also Celestial Scion.
As for our part, we want to keep Extra Rings, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan from our Artificer bonus feats. As for crafting feats, we will keep Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Forge Ring. We have six extra feats. Taking Favored and Primary Contact will give us plus one skill rank and let us dump an extra point in our Item familiar. Then we take Persuasive, Trustworthy, Sacred Vow for perfection, and Alluring.
The bonus is now up to 292. And we can use diplomacy against unintelligent undead, which is stupid but kinda nice utility.
[/sblock]
Could I go any higher? What is the current record? Did I break any rules? Thanks, Wizards Char-Oppers!
Originally posted by Krusk:
This is the old world record thread. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...(x) Not sure if its still updated.
Diplomacy sits at a nice solid +10,347 by Tsuyoshikentsu. So close but not quite.
You also don't mention how you got your stats, which is important.
Two of your items don't stack, and you use a lot of custom items which is frowned on.
Nixie's Grace, +8 Cha. - Enhancement
Devil's Ego, (Magic Item, Command Word, keep casting until +5) Enhancement
I feel like you probably want to check your items too, but don't want to dive into it.
Leadership is sort of lame too.
I play a fighter 20 with 0 ranks in diplomacy. My charisma is 10 and I cheated to get leadership.
I have 61 dudes aid another on my diplomacy check and I assume I roll a 1. I got a +33 on my check. You've got 163 buddies, so you can add twice that as they all take 10 to aid another.
Its also lame because its basically giving you two characters to play with.
Originally posted by sowz:
Oops. There is a Devil's Ego that gives a profane bonus of +4. So one less, but I can be Venerable to balance that out. Thanks. I'm not using all my little dudes to get my diplomacy score boosted with aid another. Though if I did, (assuming none of my followers have a Cha bonus or ranks in diplomacy,) I could get +326 on top of my +292. Though I could get each of my cohorts up to 40 Diplomacy even with no ranks in Diplomacy or Charisma, which would make going into a town and converting everyone a quick task.
I am aware of the 10,000. That was a really cool optimization, though it was really an excercise in optimizing Jump. I'm curious how to best be a Diplomancer with a character who possesses true Diplomacy skill as opposed to Jumplomancy with the Examplar trick.
I could calculate how much all the items cost me specifically and probably should. Last time I did a rough estimation is was well below WBL.
As for the custom magic items, I think it is a little better for TO when using an Artificer that explicitly knows every spell in the game for purposes of item creation. But regardless, I could always put the majority of the spells into wands and the few that are higher than 4th level into scrolls.
Originally posted by sowz:
You're build doesn't top mine because you can't take Epic Feats at 8th level.
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
That's the thing - Martial Monk can take fighter bonus feats as if they were monk bonus feats, which includes the unusual property of ignoring all prerequisites.
The question I'd have here is if the feats on the "epic fighter bonus feat list" are actually "fighter" bonus feats (they appear to be separate lists - the epic list has every nonepic fighter feat on it, but the nonepic "fighter" list lacks the epic ones). I could be dead wrong about this though; I never touch Epic with an eleven-foot pole.
Sowz: Because CJ never defines when he's using lingo, "nanobots" refer to having a host of incredibly small allies who are capable of Aiding Another on a specific task.(x) The poster, the great LordofProcrastination, stopped short of considering it a "dirty trick" but it's still not something to try on just any DM (as Aid Another has the DM setting limits arbitrarily on how much help you can get; practically-speaking this means there's a RAW way for the DM to squash the whole trick, even though the trick is clever and on many skills quite reasonable anyway).
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I only ask because they title the lists separately - as opposed to something like "An epic fighter adds these feats to the list he can select from with his bonus feats" or similar, they rather create an "epic fighter" list that is distinct from the "fighter" list ("selected from the list of epic fighter bonus feats" also supports the claim that it's a separate list), and add all of "fighter" to "epic fighter". Although the epic fighter list contains the fighter list, they appear to be separate lists, and the martial monk may very well be limited to just the "fighter" list.
Again, I'm pretty sure that's not the case, but it's not as airtight as, say, using it to pick up Weapon Supremacy at 1st.
Originally posted by sowz:
I can drop my cohort entirely, then, and my number is 271. I believe that for pure diplomacy, barring Jumplomancy and other 'treat this skill as diplomacy' tricks. 271 is the highest diplomacy I've seen an individual character be able to achieve. (Meaning Aid Another wouldn't be allowed.)
Originally posted by sowz:
No loops, no aid another, actually using the skill being optimized isn't overly limiting the criteria. The build you linked me too is based on loops. The numbers get arbitrarily high and you don't need to squeeze out every possible bonus because you just need the loop. Every skill can be an arbitrarily high number. You can have a Sense Motive of six-google-plex. But no one considers infinity the records because they are loops.
Further, as you pointed out, you can get thousands by using aid another a ridiculous number of times. That build would have nothing to do with diplomacy but just getting as many minions as possible. Though I suppose I could cheese a way to get Epic Leadership and move my levels around, that changes the spirit of the excercise. Asking the character themself to get the bonus is not overly exclusive. As for Jumplomancy or other tricks, now you are optimizing jump. Picking a specific skill to optimize or a stat is part of the optimization. If it wasn't for the Jumplomancy restriction, there would be no reason to actually expiriment with the diplomacy skill at all.
So you still haven't shown a better actual diplomacy build, you've just pointed to loops or high follower number builds whilst trying to be insulting. If there is someone whose character actually has more diplomacy, great! I've yet to see it, (barring loops.) Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Originally posted by sowz:
I never said I didn't know about the jumplomancer or omnisificer. I did. I didn't know about all the builds, and it's interesting some of the things that have been mentioned. I specifically said I didn't want jumplomancy or loops before hand. My point wasn't to have my ego stroked. First time I posted my diplomacy build it was significantly lower and people pointed me towards lots of things and I was grateful and had fun trying to work new tricks and bonus in the build. I don't need you to validate me or put words in my mouth.
What I didn't want is to turn the build into something else. I don't want it to be jumplomancy or use the trick that allows yout to pass off other skills as diplomacy because for whatever reason I wanted to optimize the actual diplomacy skill. My denying of the builds you posted is not because I am 'sad my record has been beat.' It's because the purpose of the build was to optimize diplomacy. Not optimize number of followers or use infinite loops. If you have an actual diplomacy build higher than mine, I'd love to see it and see what it has done. If there is some easy boost to Charisma or diplomacy I am missing I am happy to hear it and learn more about all the angles.
Every time I find three or four more points I can put into it, that is fun to me. What's not fun is just getting a thousand followers and calling it good. Unless I was actually trying to optimize number of followers, in which case that would be fun. But I'm not. Why are you so hostile?
Originally posted by sowz:
Go back to my early posts. I specifically reference Jumplomancy. I also specifically say I am not interested in loops, so Omnisificer isn't relevant either. I had never heard the term nanobots. When you first brought it up, I spent a bit of time trying to work that in and maximize my number of nanobots. It was boring to me, I didn't enjoy it because I didn't feel like I was optimizing diplomacy anymore which was what I set out to do. So I figured I'd drop Leadership entirely. If that's 'transparent' whatever. I reserve the right to change my mind on things because this is just a hobby I am doing for fun. I'm not in high school on the debate team anymore. There aren't any prizes I miss out on by changing directions.
And yeah, you helped me realize that using Aid Another was cheap of me to do if I was trying to make a diplomancer because the best way to do that would be to just use tons of minions. I never used my non-cohort followers to do aid another because I specifically didn't want to focus on maximizing my minion numbers but you convinced me that this was very inconsistent of me. If using a cohort is fair, why not my followers? So earlier in the thread I dropped my cohort.
I could really care less if there are loops and nanobot tricks to get a diplomacy score in the thousands for the purpose of this excercise. I do care about them, they are an interesting thing in the game, and I have no issue with people bringing them up because I like to learn stuff. But I don't care about it in reference to this build because it is not what I am trying to do. If a different combination of items and spells and such allow for a higher actual diplomacy score, maybe something built on a bard chasis or somesuch, that would be a different thing entirely because it is shooting for what I am shooting for. If the numbers are higher, cool, I'd like to see how that person did it.
I have little respect for people that throw around the word noob. It encourages insular cultures and is the same kind of nonsense as people who play video games telling other people who is and isn't a real gamer. Classify me as a noob all you want. The word is meaningless to me.
Originally posted by sowz:
The Epic Leadership build and Nanobot idea are both higher than the build I posted which utilized aid another. I tried incorporating it, didn't like the maximizing of aid another through minion control, and shifted gears. This isn't lack of self awareness. I know what happened. I also would like to have the highest actual diplomacy score, sure. I can't say I don't care about that. It would be neat. But highest aid another and highest jump score shifted into diplomacy score or coolest infinite loop is not what I am going for. IMO, I'm not figuring out the most ways to squeeze numbers out of diplomacy score at that point. My opinion on using my cohort changed, sure. You can sue me for not being 100% consistent this whole time if you want.
I did read your posts, though I admit I read them with bias because of the condescending tone from the first post. If there was something else you were getting at, yeah, I may have missed it. People are going to miss things and disregard what you say even if it is perfectly valid if you run right out of the gate being a jerk.
As far as being butthurt, I am still here. I'm a little sad that the thread is now derailed and most people probably won't read the whole thing because of the hostility but whatever. If anyone wants to, I'd like to actually discuss the build now. Some people have pointed out ways to increase it, or things that don't work, or builds that achieve higher numbers in different ways and I'd like to commence with that discussion. I'll give you last word on this back and forth where you can feel free to pick apart my sentences and explain how I am exactly like the kind of person you are lumping me in with and such. I'll read it. But I won't respond to it because this has gone on long enough.
If you actually have advice on what obvious tricks I've missed that make me a noob for not using them, feel free to post them or not. Your call.
Originally posted by sowz:
I know I said I was going to drop it, but I decided to come back on and apologize. I played an equal role in escalating our back and forth into pretty blatant insults and took stuff personally which I should have known better than to do. Life's too short to spend time bickering for no reason on the internet so for what it's worth I wish I hadn't said most of what I said.
Hey, all.
So far my build has, effectively, 282 diplomacy. 277 if you don't think that Visage of the Greater Deity gives the racial stat bonus of a Half-Celestial. 292 if I am willing to use DCFS and 3e feats that weren't carried over. (Explained below. Also, the Diploficer always take ten and does't take a -10 penalty for rushed on diplomacy checks.)
Build: Warlock 1/Binder 1/Marshal 1/Cleric 1 (Charm and Community Domain)/Artificer 16
Race: Old Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Half-Elf (24 Charisma. 34 With Tomes and levels.)
Flaws: Murkey Eyed, Non-combatant
Traits: Polite, Illiterate (For a +2 Diplomacy)
Feats: Complementary Insight, (Synergy bonus goes up to +3,) Celestion Scion-Cranden, Nymph's Kiss, Sacred Vow, Negotiator, Wild Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Item Familiar, Leadership, Obtain Familiar (Pig,) Skill Focus Diplomacy*, All the crafting feats plus Extra Rings/Attune Magic Weapon/the Artisan Feats* (I still have one feat left, too!) *Means I got it as a bonus feat
Magic Items: (Many of these items can be 1/day because they last so long. Regardless, well within a level 20 Characters WBL. Enough so we could buy extra items to consume to fuel the XP costs. But we shouldn't need to with the craft reserve.)
Charisma Boosters
Nixie's Grace, +8 Cha.
Devil's Ego, (Magic Item, Command Word, keep casting until +5)
Snowsong, +4 Cha.
Righteous Aura, +4 Cha.
Visage of the Greater Deity, +4 Cha
Diplomacy Boosters
+30 Diplomacy Item
Voice of the Dragon, +10
CL 15 Divine Insight, +20
CL 16 Improvisation, +8
Item of Friendly Face
Pendant of Joy +5 (Greater Heroism is smarter for a morale bonus in an opposed diplomacy situation.)
Binder lets me ignore the penalty for rushed diplomacy and lets me take ten on Diplomacy checks. Warlock gives me Beguiling Influence. Marshal let's me double the Charisma bonus on skill checks.
I wear Glamerweave for +2.
Total Charisma of 66, with +4 from Charm Cleric and my FoP cohort.
Final Tally: 23 Skill Ranks, +54 Charisma, +30 Competence, +23 Item Familiar, +20 Insight, +10 Enhancement (Voice of the Dragon,) +10 Circumstance (Artificer Infusion,) +9 Synergy, +8 Luck, +6 Warlock, +5 Morale, +3 Skill Focus, +3 Psicrystal, +3 Pig, +3 Untyped, +2 Negotiator, +2 Circumstance, +2 Racial, +2 Traits, +2 Glamerweave, +2 Community, +10 d20 roll, +10 when taking -10 for quick diplomacy
Now, here is where we go crazy. Take Leadership. My Cohort? I am going to try and attract a Half-Elf. The rules don't say I can attract templates or anything, though. So I won't do it. But I am going to encourage him to be a diplomancer. I will train him in the art of diplomancy. And I will let him use all my items, even making him his own +30 diplomacy ring cause I am so nice.
I can attract class. I'm attracting a Charisma Prodigy/Binder/Warlock/Fiend of Possession, Half-Elf Kaorti. While assuming the Evil subtype, he doesn't actually have to be evil. Assuming he has 13 Charisma, I am going to age him to Venerable. He might get pissed about it. Oh, well, I can calm him down cause he is a fanatic follower. So 24 Charisma. +4 from levels, +5 from Tome. 31. I can bring it up to 60 with all my gear and his dip coming up. He can give me +3 Cha, too!
Assuming he has max diplomacy ranks, skill focus, negotiator, and complementary insight, he will have a high bonus. He can take a level of Marshal, freeing up a feat slot. He can take Favored and Primary Contact for +1 skill rank. I am going to make him take a Sacred Vow and make out with my Nymph friend after he dips in Charm/Community Domain Cleric, (he will serve my god, now. Remember, this is TO. If his Cohort was this good, this is the highest theoretical Diplomacy if we do it right. Barring Jumplomancy and loops.) He will also take three levels in half-elf.
Also, he should dip a level in Psion. Take Psicrystal Affinity. +3. Wizard for a Pig Familiar is an easy +3 boost.
His build is Kaorti 4/Prodigy 2/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Marshal 1/Psion 1/Cleric 1/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Wizard 1/X (Free levels) 2
I teach him to make an item familiar. If he maxes it out, that is plus 17. Final score should be 266 on his Diplomacy, (268 with Glamerweave.) His aid another gives me +26, using the expert assistance rules.
I'm assuming LA Buyoff is a no-go. If it is not, yipee for us. We can be Charisma prodigy Half-Fey. That is an extra +10 Diplomacy! But let's not assume that, it breaks the rules.
ULTRA MUNCHKIN MODE
Show
[sblock]This uses the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle. It also throws a bunch of 3e feats into the mix. Anyway, our half-elf Cohort will take one level of Fighter and three of Artificer, giving us four lovely feats to play with. Trustworthy, Persuasive, and Alluring. Also Celestial Scion.
As for our part, we want to keep Extra Rings, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan from our Artificer bonus feats. As for crafting feats, we will keep Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Forge Ring. We have six extra feats. Taking Favored and Primary Contact will give us plus one skill rank and let us dump an extra point in our Item familiar. Then we take Persuasive, Trustworthy, Sacred Vow for perfection, and Alluring.
The bonus is now up to 292. And we can use diplomacy against unintelligent undead, which is stupid but kinda nice utility.
[/sblock]
Could I go any higher? What is the current record? Did I break any rules? Thanks, Wizards Char-Oppers!
Originally posted by Krusk:
This is the old world record thread. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...(x) Not sure if its still updated.
Diplomacy sits at a nice solid +10,347 by Tsuyoshikentsu. So close but not quite.
You also don't mention how you got your stats, which is important.
Two of your items don't stack, and you use a lot of custom items which is frowned on.
Nixie's Grace, +8 Cha. - Enhancement
Devil's Ego, (Magic Item, Command Word, keep casting until +5) Enhancement
I feel like you probably want to check your items too, but don't want to dive into it.
Leadership is sort of lame too.
I play a fighter 20 with 0 ranks in diplomacy. My charisma is 10 and I cheated to get leadership.
I have 61 dudes aid another on my diplomacy check and I assume I roll a 1. I got a +33 on my check. You've got 163 buddies, so you can add twice that as they all take 10 to aid another.
Its also lame because its basically giving you two characters to play with.
Originally posted by sowz:
Oops. There is a Devil's Ego that gives a profane bonus of +4. So one less, but I can be Venerable to balance that out. Thanks. I'm not using all my little dudes to get my diplomacy score boosted with aid another. Though if I did, (assuming none of my followers have a Cha bonus or ranks in diplomacy,) I could get +326 on top of my +292. Though I could get each of my cohorts up to 40 Diplomacy even with no ranks in Diplomacy or Charisma, which would make going into a town and converting everyone a quick task.
I am aware of the 10,000. That was a really cool optimization, though it was really an excercise in optimizing Jump. I'm curious how to best be a Diplomancer with a character who possesses true Diplomacy skill as opposed to Jumplomancy with the Examplar trick.
I could calculate how much all the items cost me specifically and probably should. Last time I did a rough estimation is was well below WBL.
As for the custom magic items, I think it is a little better for TO when using an Artificer that explicitly knows every spell in the game for purposes of item creation. But regardless, I could always put the majority of the spells into wands and the few that are higher than 4th level into scrolls.
Originally posted by sowz:
You're build doesn't top mine because you can't take Epic Feats at 8th level.
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Doesn't it just indicate that it's the 8th feat in the list of epic fighter feats, or am I missing some part of the notation there?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
That's the thing - Martial Monk can take fighter bonus feats as if they were monk bonus feats, which includes the unusual property of ignoring all prerequisites.
The question I'd have here is if the feats on the "epic fighter bonus feat list" are actually "fighter" bonus feats (they appear to be separate lists - the epic list has every nonepic fighter feat on it, but the nonepic "fighter" list lacks the epic ones). I could be dead wrong about this though; I never touch Epic with an eleven-foot pole.
Sowz: Because CJ never defines when he's using lingo, "nanobots" refer to having a host of incredibly small allies who are capable of Aiding Another on a specific task.(x) The poster, the great LordofProcrastination, stopped short of considering it a "dirty trick" but it's still not something to try on just any DM (as Aid Another has the DM setting limits arbitrarily on how much help you can get; practically-speaking this means there's a RAW way for the DM to squash the whole trick, even though the trick is clever and on many skills quite reasonable anyway).
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Ah, of course. I'll admit to having less familiarity with the Dragon material.
I first ran into the concept as just a basic idea with aid another (i.e. not part of a specific character build) where an army of ants could knock down a castle wall.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I only ask because they title the lists separately - as opposed to something like "An epic fighter adds these feats to the list he can select from with his bonus feats" or similar, they rather create an "epic fighter" list that is distinct from the "fighter" list ("selected from the list of epic fighter bonus feats" also supports the claim that it's a separate list), and add all of "fighter" to "epic fighter". Although the epic fighter list contains the fighter list, they appear to be separate lists, and the martial monk may very well be limited to just the "fighter" list.
Again, I'm pretty sure that's not the case, but it's not as airtight as, say, using it to pick up Weapon Supremacy at 1st.
Originally posted by sowz:
I can drop my cohort entirely, then, and my number is 271. I believe that for pure diplomacy, barring Jumplomancy and other 'treat this skill as diplomacy' tricks. 271 is the highest diplomacy I've seen an individual character be able to achieve. (Meaning Aid Another wouldn't be allowed.)
Originally posted by sowz:
No loops, no aid another, actually using the skill being optimized isn't overly limiting the criteria. The build you linked me too is based on loops. The numbers get arbitrarily high and you don't need to squeeze out every possible bonus because you just need the loop. Every skill can be an arbitrarily high number. You can have a Sense Motive of six-google-plex. But no one considers infinity the records because they are loops.
Further, as you pointed out, you can get thousands by using aid another a ridiculous number of times. That build would have nothing to do with diplomacy but just getting as many minions as possible. Though I suppose I could cheese a way to get Epic Leadership and move my levels around, that changes the spirit of the excercise. Asking the character themself to get the bonus is not overly exclusive. As for Jumplomancy or other tricks, now you are optimizing jump. Picking a specific skill to optimize or a stat is part of the optimization. If it wasn't for the Jumplomancy restriction, there would be no reason to actually expiriment with the diplomacy skill at all.
So you still haven't shown a better actual diplomacy build, you've just pointed to loops or high follower number builds whilst trying to be insulting. If there is someone whose character actually has more diplomacy, great! I've yet to see it, (barring loops.) Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Originally posted by sowz:
I never said I didn't know about the jumplomancer or omnisificer. I did. I didn't know about all the builds, and it's interesting some of the things that have been mentioned. I specifically said I didn't want jumplomancy or loops before hand. My point wasn't to have my ego stroked. First time I posted my diplomacy build it was significantly lower and people pointed me towards lots of things and I was grateful and had fun trying to work new tricks and bonus in the build. I don't need you to validate me or put words in my mouth.
What I didn't want is to turn the build into something else. I don't want it to be jumplomancy or use the trick that allows yout to pass off other skills as diplomacy because for whatever reason I wanted to optimize the actual diplomacy skill. My denying of the builds you posted is not because I am 'sad my record has been beat.' It's because the purpose of the build was to optimize diplomacy. Not optimize number of followers or use infinite loops. If you have an actual diplomacy build higher than mine, I'd love to see it and see what it has done. If there is some easy boost to Charisma or diplomacy I am missing I am happy to hear it and learn more about all the angles.
Every time I find three or four more points I can put into it, that is fun to me. What's not fun is just getting a thousand followers and calling it good. Unless I was actually trying to optimize number of followers, in which case that would be fun. But I'm not. Why are you so hostile?
Originally posted by sowz:
Go back to my early posts. I specifically reference Jumplomancy. I also specifically say I am not interested in loops, so Omnisificer isn't relevant either. I had never heard the term nanobots. When you first brought it up, I spent a bit of time trying to work that in and maximize my number of nanobots. It was boring to me, I didn't enjoy it because I didn't feel like I was optimizing diplomacy anymore which was what I set out to do. So I figured I'd drop Leadership entirely. If that's 'transparent' whatever. I reserve the right to change my mind on things because this is just a hobby I am doing for fun. I'm not in high school on the debate team anymore. There aren't any prizes I miss out on by changing directions.
And yeah, you helped me realize that using Aid Another was cheap of me to do if I was trying to make a diplomancer because the best way to do that would be to just use tons of minions. I never used my non-cohort followers to do aid another because I specifically didn't want to focus on maximizing my minion numbers but you convinced me that this was very inconsistent of me. If using a cohort is fair, why not my followers? So earlier in the thread I dropped my cohort.
I could really care less if there are loops and nanobot tricks to get a diplomacy score in the thousands for the purpose of this excercise. I do care about them, they are an interesting thing in the game, and I have no issue with people bringing them up because I like to learn stuff. But I don't care about it in reference to this build because it is not what I am trying to do. If a different combination of items and spells and such allow for a higher actual diplomacy score, maybe something built on a bard chasis or somesuch, that would be a different thing entirely because it is shooting for what I am shooting for. If the numbers are higher, cool, I'd like to see how that person did it.
I have little respect for people that throw around the word noob. It encourages insular cultures and is the same kind of nonsense as people who play video games telling other people who is and isn't a real gamer. Classify me as a noob all you want. The word is meaningless to me.
Originally posted by sowz:
The Epic Leadership build and Nanobot idea are both higher than the build I posted which utilized aid another. I tried incorporating it, didn't like the maximizing of aid another through minion control, and shifted gears. This isn't lack of self awareness. I know what happened. I also would like to have the highest actual diplomacy score, sure. I can't say I don't care about that. It would be neat. But highest aid another and highest jump score shifted into diplomacy score or coolest infinite loop is not what I am going for. IMO, I'm not figuring out the most ways to squeeze numbers out of diplomacy score at that point. My opinion on using my cohort changed, sure. You can sue me for not being 100% consistent this whole time if you want.
I did read your posts, though I admit I read them with bias because of the condescending tone from the first post. If there was something else you were getting at, yeah, I may have missed it. People are going to miss things and disregard what you say even if it is perfectly valid if you run right out of the gate being a jerk.
As far as being butthurt, I am still here. I'm a little sad that the thread is now derailed and most people probably won't read the whole thing because of the hostility but whatever. If anyone wants to, I'd like to actually discuss the build now. Some people have pointed out ways to increase it, or things that don't work, or builds that achieve higher numbers in different ways and I'd like to commence with that discussion. I'll give you last word on this back and forth where you can feel free to pick apart my sentences and explain how I am exactly like the kind of person you are lumping me in with and such. I'll read it. But I won't respond to it because this has gone on long enough.
If you actually have advice on what obvious tricks I've missed that make me a noob for not using them, feel free to post them or not. Your call.
Originally posted by sowz:
I know I said I was going to drop it, but I decided to come back on and apologize. I played an equal role in escalating our back and forth into pretty blatant insults and took stuff personally which I should have known better than to do. Life's too short to spend time bickering for no reason on the internet so for what it's worth I wish I hadn't said most of what I said.
