Originally posted by nerdcomplex:
Have you ever felt the urge to do literally everything possible in the blink of an eye? Well now you can!
The build
Cleric-1/Binder-3/Crusader-1/Ruby Knight Vindicator-10/Anima Mage-4/Hierophant-1
For Hierophant, choose the Gift of the Divine ability. You need the following feats:
1: [Any metamagic]
3: Heretic of the Faith (possibly; see below)
6: Twin Spell
9: Divine Metamagic (Twin Spell)
12: [Any divine]
15: Retrieve Spell
18: Leadership
Your cohort's build isn't too important, so long as he has a level of Cleric, a level of Hierophant, and the ability to cast Favor of the Martyr (e.g. 7th-level Archivist casting).
You need to have access to the Spell domain in order to pull this off. That's where Heretic of the Faith comes in; RKV requires that you be a follower of Wee Jas, who doesn't grant the Spell domain. Note however that the RKV adaptations section suggests substituting Wee Jas with other deities. In case for some reason you find this adaptation totally unnacceptable, I've listed HotF as a required feat; otherwise, use that feat slot to get more feats that you want (see below).
So at this point, you've got:
So, what do we do with all this, you ask?
First, bind Tenebrous. He gives you the ability to turn/rebuke undead once every five rounds. What's important is that there is no daily limit on the number of times you can turn/rebuke undead. Now use your Gift of the Divine ability to transfer all your daily turn/rebuke uses to your cohort (Gift of the Divine never specifies that the turn/rebuke uses actually come from being a cleric). Yes, all infinity of them. Your cohort then uses his Gift of the Divine ability to transfer all the turn/rebuke undead uses back to you. You already had an unlimited use of turn/rebuke undead from Tenebrous, but now you don't have to wait five rounds between each use. You have just gotten turn/rebuke undead at will. You see where this is going?
RKV's Divine Impetus basically means you can now use as many swift actions as you want in any given round. Have your cohort cast Favor of the Martyr on you. Use your free swift actions to cast Celerity, which you prepared using Greater Anyspell. DMM Twin it, and now you've got two standard actions. Thanks to Favor of the Martyr, neither will daze you. With the first, use Retrieve spell on Celerity. You now have infinite swift actions and infinite standard actions, in any given round. Since standard actions can be converted into move actions, and since two standard actions can be converted into a full-round action (except a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw), you now have infinite actions, of any sort, in any turn. Note that by attacking something as often as necessary until you roll a natural 20, you can hit anything.
Customization
First of all, I never specified a race. Humans work well, since you can get more feats (see below). Since this is a gish build, any race which improves wisdom, strength, or constitution would be useful. You need charisma for soul binding, turning/rebuking, and for your cohort, so it shouldn't be abysmal; that being said, it's probably not so important that you choose your race to benefit charisma. Since you need to cast Greater Anyspell, you need at least wisdom 16; that's your only ability requirement.
As for feats, there are a lot of options here. You can cast any spell you have prepared as often as you want (through Retrieve Spell), which means metamgic feats that make your spells hit harder or harder to resist (such as Maximize or Heighten Spell) are useless. Focus on feats that give your spells additional functionality, such as Deafening Spell and Fell Drain. Rapid Spell is also a very good choice, since it allows you to cast more spells.
For divine feats, focus on bonuses that allow you to do something that a natural 20 wouldn't, such as Divine Accuracy. I suggest Divine Countermagic; you can ready as many actions as you want, so as long as you have a +23 modifer to Spellcraft, you can counterspell every spell that your enemies cast. Divine Spirit will let you heal yourself for as much as you want, as long as you're in a Devoted Spirit stance. Persistent Refusal means you'll never be affected by a continuous effect (that provides a saving throw, anyway). Divine Metamagic is also nice, since you can use your second metamagic feat as often as you want.
If you're a human and you don't need to take Heretic of the Faith, you can take a Least Dragonmark feat and Mark of the Dauntless, so you don't need your cohort to use Favor of the Martyr on you. Adaptive Style is also useful, since you aren't granted additional maneuvers during your turn (although RKV's Divine Recovery means you can use any granted maeuvers as often as you want).
Limitations
First of all, there are four full-round actions you can't perform while doing this: full attack, charge, run, and withdraw. Withdraw is the only of those actions that can't be performed through multiple actions. Also, you can't perform any action or spell which specifies a certain amount of time, since this all takes place within six seconds. Finally, just because you're moving at the speed of light doesn't mean you can't be interrupted; other characters still get attacks of opportunity, readied actions, immediate actions, etc.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I'm not entirely sure you are able to do this - but not for any of the obvious reasons. Tenebrous lets you turn undead as a cleric once every 5 rounds. That is not the same thing as having access to one turn attempt that recharges. I'm having similar problems with my Ashardalon Reborn build, actually.
So we're all on the same page:
Nothing about turn attempts. It's an ability of its own that lets you turn or rebuke - actually turn or rebuke - as a cleric once every 5 rounds. Nothing about turn attempts that can be used to fuel divine feats or can be transferred over.
Originally posted by nerdcomplex:
The Gift of the Divine ability:
Note that it refers to uses of turn/rebuke undead. Can you use turn/rebuke undead? Yes? Then you can transfer them.
Originally posted by Maat_Mons:
Assuming this works, there's no reason for you to take binder, anima mage, or hierophant. So long as your cohort has those levels, he can transfer an arbitrarily large number of turn attempts to you without needing to be powered up ahead of time.
Doing a single transfer instead of a double transfer also avoids having to add negative infinity to infinity, which is undefined.
If you can transfer uses of turn undead that aren't available to you yet, you don't even need to involve Tenebrous. There's no fundamental difference between getting your once per five rounds uses early and getting your however-many times per day uses early. The only time “per day” is used in the description of gift of the divine is in describing the penalty for using it, and uses per day are allowed to go into negative values, so that's no problem.
Originally posted by nerdcomplex:
Good point.
Meh, I would argue that you would just choose a number of uses for both your cohort and yourself (infinity being a valid number), but I suppose.
Where does it say that?
Originally posted by Maat_Mons:
I was misremembering an entry from the FAQ which more-or-less says that uses remaining can be negative.
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Originally posted by RogerWilco:
Wouldn't your daily uses of turn undead be limited, if you can do it once every 5 rounds, it means once every 30 seconds = twice a minute, 120 times an hour, 2880 times a day.
Still very large, but not inifinite I think?
Originally posted by EruditeApe:
Doesn't work. Also, not infinite. Also, there are better, easier action loops that don't involve giving up caster levels.
Nice effort, though.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
Heh, funny, but if even if you did allow that Tenebrious gave unlimited Turns (rather than, say, one... only one which recharges) I think you'd have better luck getting a super-CL Master Spellthief build into a game.
Also, more feats, but I would think DMM: Quicken would be better than Favoured of the Martyr + Celerity if you have infinite turn undeads anyway, though only for the purposes of casting spells I guess.
But yeah, kinda stupid.
Originally posted by Omen_of_Peace:
In a similar vein, I like the ideo of using Hierophant for Miracle as a SLA, then using Miracle to emulate Body Outside Body (CA) and have your clones use their Miracle SLAs to create more clones.
You can do a ton of other fun stuff with the clones depending on what you fill the rest of your build with:
- White Raven Tactics! And other maneuvers, potentially.
- Have them grant you their turn attempts, if you took another level of Hierophant with Gift of the Divine
...
BoB has some rule murkiness though... One could argue the clones lose access to the SLA if they lose access to spellcasting...."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />It's very high-level anyway, so I like it mostly for the mental images that go with it.
Have you ever felt the urge to do literally everything possible in the blink of an eye? Well now you can!
The build
Cleric-1/Binder-3/Crusader-1/Ruby Knight Vindicator-10/Anima Mage-4/Hierophant-1
For Hierophant, choose the Gift of the Divine ability. You need the following feats:
1: [Any metamagic]
3: Heretic of the Faith (possibly; see below)
6: Twin Spell
9: Divine Metamagic (Twin Spell)
12: [Any divine]
15: Retrieve Spell
18: Leadership
Your cohort's build isn't too important, so long as he has a level of Cleric, a level of Hierophant, and the ability to cast Favor of the Martyr (e.g. 7th-level Archivist casting).
You need to have access to the Spell domain in order to pull this off. That's where Heretic of the Faith comes in; RKV requires that you be a follower of Wee Jas, who doesn't grant the Spell domain. Note however that the RKV adaptations section suggests substituting Wee Jas with other deities. In case for some reason you find this adaptation totally unnacceptable, I've listed HotF as a required feat; otherwise, use that feat slot to get more feats that you want (see below).
So at this point, you've got:
- Cleric spells, at caster level 14
- Soul binding, at binder level 7
- Crusader maneuvers, at initiator level 15
- Turn/rebuke undead, and the ability to transfer you uses to others
- RKV's various action-economy abilities
- Some other stuff we don't really care about
So, what do we do with all this, you ask?
First, bind Tenebrous. He gives you the ability to turn/rebuke undead once every five rounds. What's important is that there is no daily limit on the number of times you can turn/rebuke undead. Now use your Gift of the Divine ability to transfer all your daily turn/rebuke uses to your cohort (Gift of the Divine never specifies that the turn/rebuke uses actually come from being a cleric). Yes, all infinity of them. Your cohort then uses his Gift of the Divine ability to transfer all the turn/rebuke undead uses back to you. You already had an unlimited use of turn/rebuke undead from Tenebrous, but now you don't have to wait five rounds between each use. You have just gotten turn/rebuke undead at will. You see where this is going?
RKV's Divine Impetus basically means you can now use as many swift actions as you want in any given round. Have your cohort cast Favor of the Martyr on you. Use your free swift actions to cast Celerity, which you prepared using Greater Anyspell. DMM Twin it, and now you've got two standard actions. Thanks to Favor of the Martyr, neither will daze you. With the first, use Retrieve spell on Celerity. You now have infinite swift actions and infinite standard actions, in any given round. Since standard actions can be converted into move actions, and since two standard actions can be converted into a full-round action (except a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw), you now have infinite actions, of any sort, in any turn. Note that by attacking something as often as necessary until you roll a natural 20, you can hit anything.
Customization
First of all, I never specified a race. Humans work well, since you can get more feats (see below). Since this is a gish build, any race which improves wisdom, strength, or constitution would be useful. You need charisma for soul binding, turning/rebuking, and for your cohort, so it shouldn't be abysmal; that being said, it's probably not so important that you choose your race to benefit charisma. Since you need to cast Greater Anyspell, you need at least wisdom 16; that's your only ability requirement.
As for feats, there are a lot of options here. You can cast any spell you have prepared as often as you want (through Retrieve Spell), which means metamgic feats that make your spells hit harder or harder to resist (such as Maximize or Heighten Spell) are useless. Focus on feats that give your spells additional functionality, such as Deafening Spell and Fell Drain. Rapid Spell is also a very good choice, since it allows you to cast more spells.
For divine feats, focus on bonuses that allow you to do something that a natural 20 wouldn't, such as Divine Accuracy. I suggest Divine Countermagic; you can ready as many actions as you want, so as long as you have a +23 modifer to Spellcraft, you can counterspell every spell that your enemies cast. Divine Spirit will let you heal yourself for as much as you want, as long as you're in a Devoted Spirit stance. Persistent Refusal means you'll never be affected by a continuous effect (that provides a saving throw, anyway). Divine Metamagic is also nice, since you can use your second metamagic feat as often as you want.
If you're a human and you don't need to take Heretic of the Faith, you can take a Least Dragonmark feat and Mark of the Dauntless, so you don't need your cohort to use Favor of the Martyr on you. Adaptive Style is also useful, since you aren't granted additional maneuvers during your turn (although RKV's Divine Recovery means you can use any granted maeuvers as often as you want).
Limitations
First of all, there are four full-round actions you can't perform while doing this: full attack, charge, run, and withdraw. Withdraw is the only of those actions that can't be performed through multiple actions. Also, you can't perform any action or spell which specifies a certain amount of time, since this all takes place within six seconds. Finally, just because you're moving at the speed of light doesn't mean you can't be interrupted; other characters still get attacks of opportunity, readied actions, immediate actions, etc.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I'm not entirely sure you are able to do this - but not for any of the obvious reasons. Tenebrous lets you turn undead as a cleric once every 5 rounds. That is not the same thing as having access to one turn attempt that recharges. I'm having similar problems with my Ashardalon Reborn build, actually.
So we're all on the same page:
Nothing about turn attempts. It's an ability of its own that lets you turn or rebuke - actually turn or rebuke - as a cleric once every 5 rounds. Nothing about turn attempts that can be used to fuel divine feats or can be transferred over.
Originally posted by nerdcomplex:
The Gift of the Divine ability:
Note that it refers to uses of turn/rebuke undead. Can you use turn/rebuke undead? Yes? Then you can transfer them.
Originally posted by Maat_Mons:
Assuming this works, there's no reason for you to take binder, anima mage, or hierophant. So long as your cohort has those levels, he can transfer an arbitrarily large number of turn attempts to you without needing to be powered up ahead of time.
Doing a single transfer instead of a double transfer also avoids having to add negative infinity to infinity, which is undefined.
If you can transfer uses of turn undead that aren't available to you yet, you don't even need to involve Tenebrous. There's no fundamental difference between getting your once per five rounds uses early and getting your however-many times per day uses early. The only time “per day” is used in the description of gift of the divine is in describing the penalty for using it, and uses per day are allowed to go into negative values, so that's no problem.
Originally posted by nerdcomplex:
Good point.
Meh, I would argue that you would just choose a number of uses for both your cohort and yourself (infinity being a valid number), but I suppose.
Where does it say that?
Originally posted by Maat_Mons:
I was misremembering an entry from the FAQ which more-or-less says that uses remaining can be negative.
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Which would presumably be so that if you're balancing a penalty that takes the remaining uses into negatives against a bonus that raises them above 0, the bonus has to be big enough to fully offset the penalty.
Originally posted by RogerWilco:
Wouldn't your daily uses of turn undead be limited, if you can do it once every 5 rounds, it means once every 30 seconds = twice a minute, 120 times an hour, 2880 times a day.
Still very large, but not inifinite I think?
Originally posted by EruditeApe:
Doesn't work. Also, not infinite. Also, there are better, easier action loops that don't involve giving up caster levels.
Nice effort, though.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
Heh, funny, but if even if you did allow that Tenebrious gave unlimited Turns (rather than, say, one... only one which recharges) I think you'd have better luck getting a super-CL Master Spellthief build into a game.
Also, more feats, but I would think DMM: Quicken would be better than Favoured of the Martyr + Celerity if you have infinite turn undeads anyway, though only for the purposes of casting spells I guess.
But yeah, kinda stupid.
Originally posted by Omen_of_Peace:
In a similar vein, I like the ideo of using Hierophant for Miracle as a SLA, then using Miracle to emulate Body Outside Body (CA) and have your clones use their Miracle SLAs to create more clones.
You can do a ton of other fun stuff with the clones depending on what you fill the rest of your build with:
- White Raven Tactics! And other maneuvers, potentially.
- Have them grant you their turn attempts, if you took another level of Hierophant with Gift of the Divine
...
BoB has some rule murkiness though... One could argue the clones lose access to the SLA if they lose access to spellcasting...."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />It's very high-level anyway, so I like it mostly for the mental images that go with it.
