Where is the National Guard?

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

You've already bundled them up in one quote. You can discuss it if you want. If you can't, don't. I won't be bothered.

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Didn't even read it. I guess you don't think it was important. So far, I don't, either.

Yes, they have issued threats. That what they did when they said the y would "defend" themselves. But hey, if you're willing to set a precedent where "armed protesters" can take over government facilities with their freedom guns, go ahead. Just remember to hold everyone who follows their example to the same standards.

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Saying you will defend yourself isn't a threat. And I'm not saying that what their doing isn't criminal (I've called their actions criminal) nor am I saying I'm okay with it (I'm not). I think these people need to be arrested, tried, and, if found guilty, serve appropriate sentences. Our point of disagreement doesn't seem to be that fact that their people are misbehaving criminally, but in the specifics of that misbehavior. So far, all I see is criminal trespass, and perhaps squatting. Because you think guns are bad, you see threats and terror and scary people. Thing is, though, that just because it's scary to you doesn't make it illegal.

Ovinomancer said:

Saying that you will defend yourselves if violence is used against you isn't a threat. Your paraphrase is deliberately provocative and isn't in line with the statements actually made. Now, that said, what was said is still stupid, but it's not a threat of violence to say that you will defend yourself against violence. If the Feds go in shooting, it's arguably legal to shoot back if what you're doing isn't endangering others. At that point, the Feds are engaged in illegal use of deadly force. The police can't just shoot you because you're doing something illegal, you must be a danger to others. So far, that's not the case, and the protesters/activists are within their legal rights to state that they will defend themselves with lethal force if attacked with lethal force.

Again, just because YOU think it's scary, doesn't mean it's an actual threat.

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In the context of this scenario, yeah it is. They aren't making these statements from their homes. It would be like going into a bank and taking it over, saying you're gonna kill anyone who displays force towards you. That's a pretty clear threat, considering that ANY action the police would do to enforce the law would be construed as "showing force" towards you.

*edit* that is to say, saying "if the police do their jobs, we will react with deadly force" is in fact a threat.

Ovinomancer said:

Didn't even read it. I guess you don't think it was important. So far, I don't, either.

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In other words, you weren't able to respond? I'm fine with that. Move on.

Because you think guns are bad, you see threats and terror and scary people. Thing is, though, that just because it's scary to you doesn't make it illegal.

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Awesome. Let's start throwing out baseless assumptions about people that you obviously know nothing about. Here, I'll try it. Because you're part of a anti-government militia from some backwater Texas hovel, you agree with these guys. You also want to break away from the U.S. government, and you are wiling to kill the evil government tyrants. How close was my assumption? I'll tell you how close it was. It was as close as your assumption that I think guns are bad.

Sacrosanct said:

In the context of this scenario, yeah it is. They aren't making these statements from their homes. It would be like going into a bank and taking it over, saying you're gonna kill anyone who displays force towards you. That's a pretty clear threat, considering that ANY action the police would do to enforce the law would be construed as "showing force" towards you.

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Yeah, if you went into a bank and sat on the floor and refused to move, it would be the same. If you were armed (ignoring all of the possible automatic assumptions of being armed and in a populated bank) and you said that you would engage your right to self-defense if a murderous cop walked in and started shooting at you, you'd not be making a threat, you'd be stating your right to self-defense.

See, that's the thing here, the actual statements have been pretty clear that the use of arms will be in response to an armed attack on the protesters/activists/idiots (whichever term you prefer). That's just a statement of the natural right to self-defense, which persists even while engaged in non-violent criminal activity. Trespass is non-violent criminal activity, and that's the same in a bank or on a wildlife preserve.

Now, if you pull your gun out in the bank and brandish it, bets are off. If you tell police that you'll shoot if they approach, bets are off. But the idiots, so far, have been just smart enough to not say such things and put themselves in a place of making actual threats.

I'll repeat: just because you find something scary doesn't mean it's a threat. These people are scary. They haven't made any threats. It's not a threat to be scary because you have a legal weapon, be a kook, and make statements about your actual rights. So far, that's all they've done, and that being scary to you doesn't make it an actual threat.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

In other words, you weren't able to respond? I'm fine with that. Move on.

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If your ego is so in need of such a massage, sure, I wasn't able to respond to the things I didn't read.

Awesome. Let's start throwing out baseless assumptions about people that you obviously know nothing about. Here, I'll try it. Because you're part of a anti-government militia from some backwater Texas hovel, you agree with these guys. You also want to break away from the U.S. government, and you are wiling to kill the evil government tyrants. How close was my assumption? I'll tell you how close it was. It was as close as your assumption that I think guns are bad.

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Apologies, my mistake, it's good to know that you're pro-guns.

If you are engaged in a crime, you don't get to claim self defense when the police try to enforce the law by removing you. It's as simple as that. You don't get to say, "We're not leaving, and any show of force will be met with deadly force in return" and call that self defense. That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard in a long time.

"I was carrying a gun, but I wasn't pointing it at the cop when he tried to arrest me for trespassing and refusing to leave. But as soon as he tried to arrest me, I shot him. Self defense you know, because he displayed a level of force towards me."

Well, at any rate, nice to know that when you're not home, I'll go take over your house with all my weapons, and say anyone who tries to remove me against my will I will consider it a show of force and return with deadly force of my own. Nice to know you'd consider that self defense on my part, and not a threat at all.

Sacrosanct said:

If you are engaged in a crime, you don't get to claim self defense when the police try to enforce the law by removing you.

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Yeah. That's known as "resisting arrest".

Ovinomancer said:

If your ego is so in need of such a massage, sure, I wasn't able to respond to the things I didn't read.

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Ego is such a mentalistic construct. Please Sthap.

Apologies, my mistake, it's good to know that you're pro-guns.

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I grew up around guns, handling them since I was 7 years old. I wouldn't say "pro-gun." I'm not afraid of guns, nor do I dislike them. I also don't believe everyone and their mothers should have access to guns.

goldomark said:

Terrorism is a violent means to a political end.

You can google it or go at your local library.

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OMG! This country was founded by terrorists!

The_Silversword said:

OMG! This country was founded by terrorists!

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Indeed it was, from a certain point of view - a POV shared by about 1/3 of all colonial residents at the time. Patriot agitators weren't exactly shy about intimidating their loyalist neighbors.