The Origin of the Fireball

darjr · Jan 23, 2016

He uses fire thanks to the ring of fire given to him.

Psikerlord# · Jan 23, 2016

TraverseTravis said:
Since I know of no other place in the Middle-earth stories where bursts of fire are cast by a wizard, the origin of the D&D fireball must be this very passage:

"He gathered the huge pinecones from the branches of his tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke."

-The Hobbit, Chapter 6: "Out of the Frying-Pan Into the Fire"

Yes I was thinking the same thing - who casts a fire ball in Lotr!

Polyhedral_Columbia · Jan 24, 2016

Two "fire ball" passage in Tolkien's text

Celebrim said:
There is no passage in which Gandalf casts a fireball, ... A close reading of the text shows that Gandalf was able to set things that were combustible on fire, but not to conjure flame in midair the way a D&D evoker does.

I'm not saying L. Patt's "Rules for Middle-earth" (and thence D&D) accurately portray what happened in that scene where Gandalf casts those fire-cones...I'm just saying that surely this passage (and the other passage you mention) are the sources for Patt's inclusion of "fire ball" in the "Rules for Middle-earth"! Likewise, Patt's rules (and D&D) rather hamhandedly portray Halflings, Dwarves, Elves, Ents, and so forth, and strip them into simplified wargame mechanics.

But still, the cones are "fireball-ish":

"They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off"

You're right that the passage from "A Journey in the Dark" is the other "fire ball" passage". Thanks for adding this:

"Naur an edraith amen! Naur dan I ngaurhoth!", [Gandalf] cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light.

If Patt's rulesheet is the origin of the D&D fireball, then those two passages (from The Hobbit and Fellowship of the Ring) are almost certainly the primary origin of the D&D fireball, even though Patt simplified what actually happened in the stories.

Kwalish Kid · Jan 24, 2016

I wonder what Son Of A Preacher Man thinks about this article.

(Sorry for the ancient reference!)

Jhaelen · Jan 25, 2016

I'm not sure when the spell was introduced in D&D, but Fire Seeds matches the spell cast in The Hobbit a lot better than Fireball.

mach1.9pants · Jan 25, 2016

Jiggawatts said:
I love discovering historic game information. Like how elves being immune to ghoul paralysis is derived from a Chainmail rule that was a balancing tool for elves going up against undead armies.

My understanding is it came from LotR elves being not afraid of human ghosts (see Paths of the Dead), and the paralyzing effect of ghouls originally was from generic undead caused terror (unable to move) affecting a unit. Therefore elven units weren't affected by this terror, eventually turning into bring immune to a ghouls paralyzing touch!

Onussen · Jan 26, 2016

Interestingly enough, Gygax himself had this to say about the Fantasy supplement to chainmail:

No game I had played before I devised the Man-to-Man rules for the Chainmail rules book influenced that design. I made it all up off the top of my head, just as I did the Fantasy Rules section. Inspirational sources were historical for the former, mythical for the latter.

It is noteworthy, though, that the radius of a fireball and the stroke of a lightning bolt corresponded to a heacy catapult's area of attack effect and that of a cannon in the 1:20 Chainmail rules

It is from a post he made on this forum, here http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...h-Gary-Gygax&p=3612802&viewfull=1#post3612802

Had to have something to read during the blizzard

Radaceus · Jan 29, 2016

Regarding wizards in Tolkiens Lore:
Gandalf most certainly was a wizard in the D&D sense; his race the Maiar, sent by the Valar to foster and guide middle earth, also known as the Istari, arguably could be seen as many aspects of spellcasters, Saruman a sorceror, Radagast most definately a druid. We have no idea the nature of the two Blue 'wizards' who went off into the east and are mentioned only briefly in passing. IN essence, the term wizard is used only in its original sense...a spell caster (note Gygax used the term Magic-user).
Eslewise, we have no other examples of wizards per se, save for the Eldar elves themselves (Elrond, Galadriel, Celebrimbor, Melian, etc) who would be more akin to demi-gods, or Angels if you wish to make that parallel. There is also Beorn, a shapechanger, but arguably a lycanthrope and not a spellcaster.

So, in the scope of L. Patt's rules, the battles would be more akin to war-gaming re-enactment's and the wizard mentioned would be one of the Istari, a unique, thus the reason he has made them so hard to kill.

on an aside,
I've never been able to get into Middle Earth RP for the very matter of the idea of a wizard in every hamlet just does my head in and ruins my purist sense of the Tolkien's lore.

increment · Feb 6, 2016

An update, now featuring a conversation with Len Patt about his rules:

http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2016/02/a-conversation-with-len-patt.html

Relic Dice · Mar 23, 2016

Hah! I now have an awesome find to share with some goblins I know. The history of the Fireball would of course come from Middle Earth! And seeing Gandalfs amazing ability to keep up with his sword, it makes sense!

Wizards nowadays (5e) should learn to be more like Gandalf. Just wade into combat with your sword, overflowing with awesome, 'cause all you know is Pyrotechnics and MAYBE a lightning bolt, for emergencies.

The Origin of the Fireball

darjr

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