Have we failed to discourage min-maxing?

RCanine

First Post
I really liked the concept of Skill Challenges in the early part of 4E & LFR. Later though, I grew to dislike how every mod seemed to have a skill challenge, and that some of them did not work very well and seemed shoehorned into the mod.

I have seen a few mods where you can talk your way through unnecessary combats, so that is a good thing. Less combats overall, is what I would prefer.

Skill challenges took a bit of finesse to get right. They had a few problems:

  • The lack of action economy let one highly-skilled character run the whole thing
  • Ending on three failures was both statistically a poor decision and incentivized min-maxing, not RP choices
  • Insufficient detail / structure left players to just haphazardly guess what the right solution was
  • Failure without advancing the plot led to a "nope, try again" approach to failure that is not fun.

However, part of the problem with AL adventures is that they're generally not allowed to include enemies that cannot be defeated via combat, so combat becomes a weakly optimal strategy.
 

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delericho

Legend
I hate to be cynical enough to suggest that the answer is 'let's leave the incentive to min-max in the adventure design, but publicly tell people they don't need to optimize as a way of trying to convince new players that they won't have to wade through min-maxers to play a fun game...

Perhaps the answer to that is "n00b friendly servers"?

(By which I guess I mean a two-tier approach, where new players cut their teeth on a slightly easier version of the adventures in their first season, while those in their second or subsequent season play a slightly harder version that does indeed expect more optimisation.)
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
So far, so good. Our group got together, put some finishing touches on their characters, and jumped into the Suits of the Mists adventure. Because we spent a fair amount of time doing the exposition dump, we only had time to do one of the scenarios, and the players (remembering their experiences with other characters playing Tales Trees Tell) decided to run Scenario 4.

[sblock]My tweaks seemed to work really well. Changing Jeny's task from 'kill an elk and bring me its heart' to 'bring me the still-beating heart from a living elk, and here's the ritual you do it with' changed the elk fight from a stand up combat into a tense, exciting scene.

It started with the rogue sneaking up close to where the elk were drinking from the creek; he noticed that one of the elk appeared sickly and decided to try to lasso that elk with a rope, since Strength was his dump stat. However, he missed the DC10 roll (called out in the module as the default DC for actions not otherwise covered) by one, and I described how the other elk bolted while the sickly elk was trying to get his feet under him. Reeling the rope back in for another throw would give the elk time to escape, so he leapt out from the brush and grappled the elk. Good rolls (and a hasty decision to impose disadvantage on the elk's ability checks due to its illness) allowed him to limit the elk's mobility until the rest of the party could catch up and help hog-tie the elk's legs, at which point the cleric performed the ritual and removed the elk's heart, Temple-of-Doom style.

As an added bonus, the cleric's player is a bow-hunter, while the rogue's grew up on a farm where he participated in horse-wrangling that sometimes ended up very similar to how this scene played out. Both players noted that the verisimilitude in the scene added to their enjoyment, which is always a plus.[/sblock]

So a Dex-optimized rogue ended up relying on his dump stat to help the party succeed in its mission. I call that a win!

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Pauper
 

felwred

First Post
CoC is a great game to teach and encourage role-playing. As a general rule, combat in Cthulhu is very bad - if it's against a mythos creature it means death (often). CoC's fun is the role playing.

One trigger we can use as DM's is to remind players that role-playing through scenarios instead of killing the NPCs awards the same XP. Even in AL, "overcoming" a creature doesn't have to mean killing it. I had a group of PC's Sunday night drink a main antagonist under the table to remove him as a threat. They could have just attacked him but using their brains, they figured out a good solution that had less threat to them (and was more fun).

Strahd, overall, will present role-play opportunities especially when you have Strahd himself or his direct followers encounter the party. They will get the feel pretty quickly that hack and slash won't work. Strahd is the archetype smart villain not putting himself in harm's way but enjoying taunting the party and monologing. Beating him should require taking advantage of that.

Fred

Fred
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
(By which I guess I mean a two-tier approach, where new players cut their teeth on a slightly easier version of the adventures in their first season, while those in their second or subsequent season play a slightly harder version that does indeed expect more optimisation.)

We kind of had that in LFR, but in the other direction -- the adventure was written assuming 'standard' characters, and then there were instructions for DMs that really wanted to challenge their players to upgrade to 'Glory Tier' to provide a challenge for highly-optimized characters.

I'll leave it to someone who was part of the design process for LFR to explain why that concept was dropped for AL (but I suspect the additional time required to design and playtest the Glory Tier material is part of the story), but I can say from my perspective, because Glory Tier didn't provide any additional rewards, none of the optimizers in my area were very interested in running it, because it increased the chances that they wouldn't complete the adventure without increasing the rewards for doing so.

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Pauper
 

because Glory Tier didn't provide any additional rewards, none of the optimizers in my area were very interested in running it, because it increased the chances that they wouldn't complete the adventure without increasing the rewards for doing so.

And that would be why we did away with it. For AL we are instead more interested in adding discussions (in appendixes) on how to expand/shorten the story to fit the time you have to play an adventure.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The AL adventures are structured such that the optimal approach is to use a combat-monster, with all non-combat stuff either being strictly optional or being handled without recourse to the mechanics, and so those are the characters you'll see at the table.
5e's ruling-over-rules and bounded accuracy signatures do encourage resolving things with RP rather than mechanics, which a lot of folks love, I know, but which does leave open the option to sacrifice anything you can snow your way through without reference to mechanics (mostly meaning bypassing checks), so as to maxx the few things you can't (mostly combat and casting).

Skill challenges took a bit of finesse to get right. They had a few problems:
Maybe I wasn't doin' it by the book, but:
The lack of action economy let one highly-skilled character run the whole thing
Just go around the table, everybody makes a check.
Ending on three failures was both statistically a poor decision and incentivized min-maxing, not RP choices
Statistically it beat the unholy heck out of the original n successes before n/2 failures, which actually got easier the greater the value of n, the opposite of what 'greater complexity' was supposed to represent.
Insufficient detail / structure left players to just haphazardly guess what the right solution was
I sometimes feared the opposite, that they could be a little too structured & prescriptive. I was always sure to point out that the player could make a case for any skill if he had an idea that didn't fit the structure.
Failure without advancing the plot led to a "nope, try again" approach to failure that is not fun.
This is one where I thought the 3-failure approach worked really well. One failure, add a complication or resource loss. Two, add another or pile on the first. Three, things go badly wrong, resources/opportunities are lost and "fail forward."

However, part of the problem with AL adventures is that they're generally not allowed to include enemies that cannot be defeated via combat, so combat becomes a weakly optimal strategy.
Combat emphasis may be in part a problem with the adventures, but it's also an issue with the system. Like most RPGs, D&D still simply has a lot of rules devoted to combat, making it seem important. They're also less DM-dependent rules, which means that you expect to have more consistent impact if you emphasize combat than if you emphasize checks (which the DM may essentially gloss over by narrating success with no roll, or undermine by narrating failure with no roll). There's just not a lot of 'meat' to the process of resolving something via checks, while there is some with combat. Bounded accuracy also makes checks less character-defining. You have to be careful to limit the opportunity to make a check to the player who declares the action or asks the question first, otherwise the 'pile on' effect will make checks more of a random event than a chance for the guy who's actually good at the particular check to shine.
 
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Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
I think there's plenty of room within 5E for the admins to re-introduce a skill challenge mechanic in an AL adventure where it makes sense.

My own feeling (and I think I'm cribbing from another poster in the thread when I say this) is that since the skill challenge was considered a core mechanic in 4E, every adventure needed to have one, even when the structure of the adventure didn't lend itself well to including a skill challenge. This was particularly true for me with hybrid combat-skill challenges, some of which worked well, and others which just seemed like an extra set of skill rolls bolted onto the combat. In my memory, the adventures where characters had to choose to fight or contribute to the skill challenge were the most effective; skill challenges that could be completed with minor actions (which most characters didn't consistently use anyway) or which happened within the flow of combat seemed more like impositions than actual challenges.

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Pauper
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
You have to be careful to limit the opportunity to make a check to the player who declares the action or asks the question first, otherwise the 'pile on' effect will make checks more of a random event than a chance for the guy who's actually good at the particular check to shine.

Agreed -- if a player makes a suggestion for an action at the table, I ask that player to make the check with his character, even if his character isn't really suited for the task. This lets other players get a lot of use out of the Help action, as an added benefit.

Also, unless a skill check is explicitly defined as a group check, I'll limit the number of characters who can attempt the check, generally only allowing one or two players to make rolls. And if a player is so brazen as to actually roll the die and tell me 'I rolled an 18 on perception to see if there are any traps' without being prompted, I'll frequently fall back on the old joke, 'Congratulations, you find all zero traps. Now give me an Investigation check to find the invisible traps.'

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Pauper
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Let me just take a moment to say how much I appreciate the high level of the discussion in this thread -- it's this kind of thread that makes me appreciate being part of this community.

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Pauper
 

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