How do you fit monks into Occidental campaigns?

Vyvyan Basterd · Nov 4, 2010

thedungeondelver said:
No they ing well weren't.

To be more specific, they were military retainers of Roland under Charlemagne in the 8th century. The Crusades were 11th-13th century.

thedungeondelver · Nov 4, 2010

Vyvyan Basterd said:
To be more specific, they were military retainers of Roland under Charlemagne in the 8th century. The Crusades were 11th-13th century.

Paladins in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS came from Poul Andersen's THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS whose main character was based exclusively on Ogier the Dane, a mythical hero of Denmark.

Barastrondo · Nov 4, 2010

I think it's entirely forgivable for anyone to suspect that some level of influence came from The Song of Roland and other works depicting the original paladins. And yeah, The Song of Roland depicts some psychotic bastards glorified by a seriously biased narrator. On the other hand, Orlando Furioso is like a checklist for fun things to do in a high-level D&D game, and the characters are a lot more sympathetic.

Grab from both those sources and Andersen, and you've got yourself a versatile place to start for a wide variety of paladin concepts. Not unlike the premise of the thread: more sources offer more ideas, without necessarily contradicting one another.

Umbran · Nov 4, 2010

thedungeondelver said:
Paladins in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS came from Poul Andersen's THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS whose main character was based exclusively on Ogier the Dane, a mythical hero of Denmark.

It's complicated, given that Ogier the Dane makes his first known appearance in the Song of Roland - and Roland was one of Charlemagne's Paladins. Ogier doesn't seem to appear in Scandinavian reference until later, when a text about Charlamagne is translated for the King of Norway.

thedungeondelver · Nov 4, 2010

Umbran said:
It's complicated, given that Ogier the Dane makes his first known appearance in the Song of Roland - and Roland was one of Charlemagne's Paladins. Ogier doesn't seem to appear in Scandinavian reference until later, when a text about Charlamagne is translated for the King of Norway.

I shouldn't have said "exclusively"; I've got like 10 things going on here today...

but the point stands; AD&D paladins are based on Andersen's "Holger du Danske".

Vyvyan Basterd · Nov 4, 2010

thedungeondelver said:
Paladins in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS came from Poul Andersen's THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS whose main character was based exclusively on Ogier the Dane, a mythical hero of Denmark.

Yes, I circumvented Andersen and went to his historical reference in parallel with the reference made to crusaders. Only to point out that the historical reference point was off, not to claim that history was the only source (I don't think many would claim that Charlemagne's paladins could cast spells).

Orius · Nov 5, 2010

Umbran said:
I didn't know that web-searches still qualified as "mysterious" on the internet.

See, that's because I've got this mental picture of newbies registering here first, then going and digging up an old post from years ago. Web search does explain things.

pawsplay · Nov 5, 2010

Tonguez said:
The Monk class is based on the idea of the Eastern Shaolin/Zen/Taoist Monk as per all those Wuxia/Golden Harvest movies right?

yet most gamers use Westernish settings

How do you reconcile the two?

- Monks are exotic 'oriental' visitors to the campaign region
- Monks are a integral part of normal society
- Monks are changed to have a more occidental outlook whilst maintaining their core abilities

any ideas?

That's just one less Western-ish thing about it. Heck, most D&D worlds have a closer resemblance to the religions of medieval India than they do any Western culture. Unless the world is literally on an Earth analog, or the setting is deliberately hewn to a more historical, less fantastic feel, there is really no good basis for objection. I mean, seriously, if the rogues are using rapiers, then the barbarians should be using Zulu spears, not claymores.

So... If I'm running a more Western medieval setting, I just exclude monks. And often rapiers. Or I include both monks and firearms.

pawsplay · Nov 5, 2010

Man in the Funny Hat said:
Paladins were originally based on ignorant, murdering crusaders for Christianity, but that's not what I run them as in my games.

Actually, the word paladin refers to the highly educated political officers of Charlemagne's empire, who were basically the precursors the governors and inspector generals of later political systems. The archetype comes Three Hearts and Three Lions + Galahad (magical horse, hello!).

The murderous crusaders actually inspired clerics, who were inspired by White's interpretation of the legendary depiction of the Templars as religious hypocrites.

Assassins were based on the Thugee from India and I still use them in my games. ...

This is an etymologically confused sentence, as assassins are named after hashishins, the hash-addled killers, while Thugees gave their name to the word... thug. The actual archetype is a poison-using, fighting rogue, and hence is more like a Venetian hired killer than either the historical assassins or the thugees.

Hungry Like The Wolf · Nov 5, 2010

prosfilaes said:
They're based off Asian films. If I ran across a Japanese RPG where there was a Western culture based off "Dude, Where's My Car" and similar films, I would be amused. I suspect you can find Asian films where the martial artist kicks ass in the West.

It astounds me that people think like this. It's easy to say you'd be amused from a place of privilege. As an Asian dnd player, I can tell you most assuredly the monk is no walk in the park.

The class is tolerable. People doing terrible racist accents and playing up stereotypes while playing that class isn't. :rant: