idea for limiting insta-kill spells

Plane Sailing · Apr 23, 2003

This isn't a fully fledged house rule by any means, rather just floating an idea around...

instant save-or-die spells (finger of death, slay living, circle of death, phantasmal killer etc) have never been tremendously appealing to me, because of their all or nothing nature.

I'm toying with the idea that failing a save against a spell which kills actually puts the target at -9hp... so they are on deaths door, and are most likely to die next round (but with a 10% chance of stabilising). It also gives a slim chance that another PC could dive in and attempt to heal or stabilise the dying PC.

I rather like the idea of a dramatic death taking 6 seconds, and with the vague, slight option for rescue. It could add an exciting dynamic to fights as well.

I could just be barking mad here, but what do you think?

Cheers

Chacal · Apr 24, 2003

Plane Sailing said:
It also gives a slim chance that another PC could dive in and attempt to heal or stabilise the dying PC.

I'm not sure the chance is that slim. IMO, it would decrease significantly these spells' utility. having someone healing another in combat isn't rare IME. Plus contingence+endurance (or emp. endurance) would work.

I like the idea too, but I'm not sure the implementation will work terribly well.

Maybe with a limitation like : to avoid the death, you must cure more damage than the spell did. Succeeding will bring the PC to -8 (or -X).
That way it would cost more than one cure to get the PC back.

I'm still not sure

Chacal

Plane Sailing · Apr 24, 2003

hmmm, good points. I'll carry on thinking about it in case it can be made workable.

Cheers

Stalker0 · Apr 24, 2003

The other thing is that any magical buffs they have on still function when they are -9, but don't function when there dead. So there's that problem as well.

Although I like your concept overall.

Norfleet · Apr 25, 2003

Right now, a save-or-die death spell makes your victim more "dead" than killing him, by, say, repeated stabbings does. This is apparent in the fact that raise dead can cure a stabbing victim, but is unable to cure a save-or-die victim.

Somehow, this seems wrong.

So the way I've handled it is that a death attack makes your victim "mostly dead", as opposed to "all dead", in effect, reversing that particular rule. As a mostly-dead character, he can be miracled and recover, provided he doesn't go swimming for an hour afterwards, as opposed to somebody who has been killed by, say, a decapitation, who is then "all dead", and all you can do is go through his pockets for loose change.

Plane Sailing · Apr 25, 2003

Nice reference to the Princess Bride

hong · Apr 25, 2003

You could just change save-or-die to save-or-take-gobs-of-damage. Say, 20d6 + 1d6/level, which is what one of Andy Collins' articles on the WotC website suggests.

Angcuru · Apr 27, 2003

Originally posted by Norfleet
...a death attack makes your victim "mostly dead", as opposed to "all dead", in effect, reversing that particular rule. As a mostly-dead character, he can be miracled and recover, provided he doesn't go swimming for an hour afterwards, as opposed to somebody who has been killed by, say, a decapitation, who is then "all dead", and all you can do is go through his pockets for loose change.

The cure for being 'mostly dead' takes the form of a rather large chocolate-covered pill, which must be shoved down the character's throat. He returns to life, but must succeed at a fortitude save DC 20+# of days (mostly dead) or be unable to do anything other than speak, move eyes to look around, etc. If failed, he may retry once every progressive hour, the DC reducing by 1 each hour. Each failure indicates that full control of the body is not restored, but rather that feeling returns to his limbs, putting him at CON1, DEX1, STR 1, increasing by one point each hour.

Plane Sailing · Apr 27, 2003

hong said:
You could just change save-or-die to save-or-take-gobs-of-damage. Say, 20d6 + 1d6/level, which is what one of Andy Collins' articles on the WotC website suggests.

I've read that, but it doesn't quite capture the feel that I want... it sort of makes "death" spells into another flavour of massive damage spells.

The kind of thing that I'm looking for is that cinematic "he's dying, can I do something desperate to help him" kind of angle.

disclosure: I don't run D&D as a computer/wargame style game where everyone always takes the optimum route to destroying something else as effeciently as possible

. I prefer "drama" to "sure kills".

Cheers

FireLance · Apr 28, 2003

Plane Sailing said:
I've read that, but it doesn't quite capture the feel that I want... it sort of makes "death" spells into another flavour of massive damage spells.

The kind of thing that I'm looking for is that cinematic "he's dying, can I do something desperate to help him" kind of angle.

disclosure: I don't run D&D as a computer/wargame style game where everyone always takes the optimum route to destroying something else as effeciently as possible . I prefer "drama" to "sure kills".

Cheers

How about this idea:
A failed saving throw against a "save-or-die" effect sets in place a process that takes a few rounds, but is unstoppable without the intervention of magic.

Harm, for example, causes the target to take 4d8+level hit points of damage per round (Will save half). Harm cannot kill its target - if the damage caused would reduce the target's hit points to below 0, the target remains at 0 hit points. While Harm is active, the target is surrounded by a crackling nimbus of negative energy (visual flavour - no game effect). (Yeah, I know Harm will be changed in 3.5e, but I think this is another way of managing it.)

Stone to Flesh and other petrification attacks cause the target to take 1d6 points of Dexterity damage per round. Once the target's Dexterity reaches 0, it turns to stone. During the petrification process, various parts of the target's anatomy slowly turn to stone.

Death Spell and other death attacks cause the target to take 1d6 points of Constitution damage per round. Once the target's Constitution reaches 0, it is killed. During the process, a sickly green aura surrounds the target.

Disintegrate and similar attacks cause the target to take 1d6 points of Strength damage per round as the target slowly loses cohesion. Once the target's Strength reaches 0, it is disintegrated. During the process, the target grows more and more transparent and finally disappears.

For a Polymorph effect, the target's physical stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution) approach those of the final form at the rate of 1d4 points per round. A fighter with Str 16, Dex 10 and Con 15 who fails the initial saving throw against being polymorphed into a toad would lose Str, gain Dex and lose Con at the rate of 1d4 points per round (one die roll affects all 3 stats) until he reaches the "average" toad statistics of Str 1, Dex 12 and Con 11. Once all three stats are the same as the final form, the target is polymorphed into that form. During the process, the target changes size (DMs can adjudicate the effects of the size changes) and gradually takes on the physical appearance of the final form.

A sucessful Dispel Magic or similar spell stops the process and restores the target's ability scores in the case of Polymorph. It does not restore hit point or ability damage in the case of the other spells.

What do you think?