D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

Sacrosanct

Legend
I own up to Out of the Abyss. You are flat out wrong and need to look again. The closest to 6 to 8 a day is the Temple module. All the others use a lot more one or two day encounters or a variety of very weak encounters far below what would constitute challenging for 6-8 encounters a day for a proper level. And even the Temple module was weak and we were clearing it with standard characters with only the magic from the module past lvl 7 or so.

Out of the Abyss was really, really bad about encounters per day. The majority of the xp was generated by random travel encounters that were rolled twice a day. The majority of the encounters were small set-piece encounters that were not very challenging at all. Hoard of the Dragon Queen was very similar. The Temple module at least had dungeon and temple complexes, but the enemies within were incredibly weak and lacked variety. The end prophets were a joke to defeat. Very poorly designed. The fact that you don't remember them very well doesn't surprise me. They aren't very memorable like many of the best older edition modules. One thing that has been lacking this edition has been well-designed, memorable modules.

To be honest, judging by what you have describe your own playstyle being, as someone who hasn't played some of those adventure paths yet, you have not convinced me that they are poorly designed adventures. What I mean, is that by your own description of your playstyle, you don't take hardly any time to prepare your adventure, and seem to treat monsters and NPCs like pieces on a static game board who can't think for themselves, but rather play the game like an arena boardgame. I said this before. If that's what you want and have fun doing, more power to you. But you really need to stop accusing the game of being poorly designed when you are playing in a style that deviates from the expectation, because when you (or anyone) does that, you as the DM need to make adjustments to do so.

Just to chime in to state why I'm no longer active in this thread: y'all have merely restarted an argument I thought was over and done with a long time ago - I mean I didn't think people still believed the myth that the game actively supports its own expected 6-8 encounter days?

People believe it because it does. One thing I've noticed that you and Celtavian have completely ignored or not taken into consideration is that the # of encounters is largely driven my player decisions. You keep assuming that the game should flash a red light and throw a big sign telling you "Stop and rest now, your encounter limit has been reached!" That's simply not true. The game is meant to be organic in play, with monsters and NPCs acting like real living beings that make decisions based on what the party is doing. And the progress of the adventure is largely based on party decisions. That means you're going to be all over the place, because:

* sometimes the party might have an opportunity to rest after only three encounters and they take it.
* sometimes the party has had six encounters and wants to rest, but they've alerted the rest of the dungeon/temple/fort and can't rest
* sometimes there's a time limit to accomplish the mission, and they might have a dozen encounters
etc, etc

The point is that on average, including things like random encounters, most groups will have 6-8 in an adventuring day. I cannot stress this enough, but if you as the DM don't play the monsters/NPCs like they would actually behave (like the monsters in the room down the hall completely ignoring the sounds of battle and just sitting there until the party enters the room) and let the party rest whenever they want, then of course that number will be less. But again, that's not on the game, that's on your playstyle

And of course, that other explanation is that WotC completely dropped the ball when it comes to making the game challenging for veteran D&Ders.

Ridiculous. I'm a veteran player of over 35 years. So is Heldritch. They didn't drop the ball. You're just not willing to run the game as an actual role-playing game instead of a boardgame, and you have no desire to prepare yourself as the DM to even know what your monsters/NPC can do. This is by your own admission in the OP by how you described your sessions.

It is obviously a newbie-friendly game. More worryingly, many monsters come across as having been designed by those same newbies.

To me, it's just a matter of time before people start playing the game at higher levels and realize what some of us have already realized: the need for an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons supplement :)

Don't hold your breath. Mearls has already said a long time ago, "No rule will fix a broken player." So don't expect them to create more rules to hold your hand because you can't be bothered to prep as a DM. You think the monsters have been designed by newbies? More likely, they are designed by people who understand that most DMs (regardless of experience) will play those monsters like a monster would actually behave in the game. Monsters have stats like INT and WIS, and they're not just there for saving throw modifiers. They are there to tell you how to play them in the game; how they would plan, react, and handle PCs.

You continue to attack the design team and absolutely refuse to acknowledge your own contributions to your problems despite several people explaining exactly why you had the problems you did. So stop blaming them, stop personally attacking them as incompetent, and stop trying to position yourself as a veteran and if anyone disagrees with you, then they're incompetent/newb themselves.
 

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guachi

Hero
LMoP - Cragmaw hideout -

1. Goblins outside hideout
2. Wolves
3. lone goblin on bridge
4. goblins on watch near dam
5. bugbear, goblins, wolf
6. goblin leader + other goblins

That's six.

Red Brand Hideout

1. Redbrands in storage area
2. Nothic
3. Bugbears
4. Redbrands playing dice
5. Glasstaff
6. Redbrand prison guards.

It's conceivable you could add a seventh encounter to each of the above with the goblin ambush for the first set of encounters and showdown with the Redbrands in Phandalin for the second.


That's just off the top of my head for that adventure as I'm at work and couldn't tell you about the other locations with specificity.

In the first two dungeons for the very first adventure for Fifth Edition we have two "adventuring days" featuring 6-7 encounters.

Please, do continue with how no 5e adventure has 6-8 encounters per day.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I mean I didn't think people still believed the myth that the game actively supports its own expected 6-8 encounter days?
The game Empowers the DM to support that expectation - if he wants some sort of vague resource-balance among the classes. By making that expectation something unlikely to come up if the DM doesn't enforce it, 5e allows both styles enabled by the relative resource parity of 4e (to a small degree, within a narrow pacing style, anyway) and the more traditional spell-slot management attrition game, as well as the not exactly unheard of 5MWD.

As has been stated repeatedly: there is almost not a single example of an official module that clearly follows what you claim is a fundamental expectation of the game, so perhaps there is another explanation.
Maybe we're off in calling it an 'expectation' it's guidance ("Crystal Clear Guidance" - Mike Mearls) in case you want to impose some resource-management pressure on casters, and thus semblance of class balance and usability of the encounter guidelines. The expectation may well be the 5MWD, with overperforming long-rest-recharge classes vs a trans-'deadly' single encounter/day the norm.

It is obviously a newbie-friendly game. More worryingly, many monsters come across as having been designed by those same newbies.
No, it's obviously a game positioned to appeal to long-time and returning players - thus the obsession with classic feel at the price of clarity, simplicity, playability & balance.

And that crack is uncalled for. Monster design is 'obviously' geared towards the fast combat goal. Most monsters are fairly simple to run, so the DM's turn doesn't get bogged down, and can't do /too much/ (maybe a little too much, some of 'em) to deprive PCs of something to do on the few turns they get in the course of a typical encounter.

To me, it's just a matter of time before people start playing the game at higher levels and realize what some of us have already realized: the need for an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons supplement :)
I'd like to see that, if only for the name! :)
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
So I decided maybe we should actually look through and summarize the Adventure Books. As I mentioned earlier, I don’t have them all, but I do have 4 of them, so I’ll summarize those 4. Here is the first, Hoard of the Dragon Queen, which was also the first official adventure released for the 5E rules, other than the Lost Mines of Phandelver from the starter set, which [MENTION=6680839]Gau[/MENTION]chi already touched upon.

Here we go…
Hoard of the Dragon Queen
Episode 1- Greenest in Flames
8 Combat encounters are provided in detail, and 8 additional random encounters are mentioned as possible. Encounters include a variety of dangers and there is a loose time constraint at play. It is totally up to the DM how many of the encounters and which of them are used.

Episode 2- Raiders’ Camp

2 Combat encounters are provided in detail, the Camp location is described in detail and allows for the opportunity for several encounters: infiltration, exploration, possible combat, possible capture, how to escape

Episode 3- Dragon Hatchery

A site based dungeon crawl that consists of 10 to 12 possible combat encounters described in detail, 6 more wandering monster encounters are provided, and a couple of traps are included as well.

Episode 4- On the Road

A 40 day journey that is meant to serve mostly as social interaction, but there are also many encounters provided; 12 detailed encounters provided, and then an additional 4 connected events. The book suggests to pace these all as needed, and to supplement with random encounters as needed, but most days would certainly not meet the multiple encounter day expectation.
Episode 5- Construction Ahead
Travel north continues, and this chapter is meant to be narrated quickly. A list of random encounters is suggested if desired, but this is another chapter that is mostly social interaction and story development.

Episode 6- Castle Naerytar

2 day trip to the Castle, random encounter roll suggested every hour, 10 encounters described.
The Castle itself is a dynamic encounter location. There are several factions within the Castle, each with its own goals and desires, and relationships with other factions. There are several ways this can all go depending on how the PCs proceed. However, over 30 possible combats of varying difficulty exist within the Castle.

Episode 7- Hunting Lodge

A site based episode, over 10 different combat encounters are possible, but combat is not the only way to succeed here, although it is very likely. Time constraints for events in Episode 8 play a part in pacing this chapter.

Episode 8- Castle in the Clouds
Two sites in this chapter, the Village of Parnast and Skyreach Castle. Time constraints play a part here. The village consists of mostly investigative social interaction, but there are up to 3 possible encounters, mostly of minimal threat. Skyreach Castle is a dynamic location with several powerful enemies, and over 15 possible combat encounters provided, although some of these may be combined if the PCs trigger certain events.

So, of the 8 chapters in this adventure, 5 of them definitively allow for at least 6 to 8 encounters. 2 do not, but are not really intended to do that. And 1 is designed so that multiple encounters are possible, but it all depends highly on how the PCs behave. So, at the very least, we can eliminate the chatter that the designers don't follow their own guidelines at all. That's clearly false. To determine if they continue to follow these guidelines, we'll have to review the subsequent adventure books. I'll try and do similar summaries for the other ones that I own (Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, and Curse of Strahd).
 

CapnZapp

Legend
People believe it because it does. One thing I've noticed that you and Celtavian have completely ignored or not taken into consideration is that the # of encounters is largely driven my player decisions. You keep assuming that the game should flash a red light and throw a big sign telling you "Stop and rest now, your encounter limit has been reached!"
No, no, NO, NO.

I have never said anything of the sort. You're only wasting your breath if all you want to do is set up strawmen for you to easily knock down.

The thing is not the game forcing the players to quit for the day. That is UTTERLY misrepresenting the complaint. In fact it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what really happens.

I wouldn't have said anything but this really takes the cake :-/
 

mpwylie

First Post
No. You have what you believe and are making arrogant, asinine assumptions about those that disagree with you.

From what I see my games work just fine, I challenge my players whether it's the experienced longtime group or the newb group. I use what they have given us and either toss out stock monsters and encounters for one group or beefed up monsters and encounters for the other. It's really not that difficult.

And yet the game designers don't design adventures with this in mind.

You're not struggling to find a reason. You're just not paying attention to the modules being produced by the company you claim follows a certain baseline.

I don't play many APs but have played a bit, as others have pointed out it's not a strict adherence but they generally give you a handful of detailed encounters then some random encounters for you to throw in as needed. It's up to you as the DM to ultilize their detailed and random encounters and manage your game appropriately.


The monsters are lacking because they are lacking. It is not a debate, but a provable fact. A party of adventures designed using the baseline you claim the game follows (which it doesn't) have far more options to crush creatures than the creatures have to crush them. I could design a base party using the base rules and easily defeat a balor or marilith. They are very weak.

Well if you are throwing 1 Marilith or Balor at a full party(let alone a party of experienced, optimized, magic item equip'd characters), even if you were actually using the encounter guidlines, yes it will be weak. But if you don't just toss a Marilith at the party and say have at it, but actually design a Marilith or Balor encounter it's a different story. Add some henchmen with some varying abilities, add cover/terrain that helps you use tactics, then actually play those monsters tactically, you will find that they aren't so weak. The fact is, you are running a game for optimizers, giving them magic items, and not following the base guidelines so the monsters are weak. You have created the atmosphere that makes them weak and design/run it poorly which makes it even weaker. These issues are not the designers faults, they are yours.


How did the marilith take better advantage of terrain than your players? How did their teleport help them? It takes an action and eliminates their ability to attack. Did they seriously not scout ahead or use missile fire which utterly defeats a marilith? Did you realize their parry doesn't work against missile weapons? Did your players play dumb and wander up to melee it? Perhaps your players aren't good at tactics or building characters? Might that be a reason your players had a hard time? It could be. Whereas tactically intelligent players that build ranged monsters may just rip your encounters apart?

Teleport can very effective in moving around the battlefield in and out of cover, if you actually design the battlefield. With a handful of henchmen to keep portions of the party occupied, to box in a ranged characters and set up situations where the Marilith can set up to charge in to a boxed in ranged and grapple them, they then can beat the crap out of the ranged characters. I generally include several different types of henchmen, sometimes a caster or abilities I can use to control the battlefield to a degree, sometimes a healer, sometimes a few ranged monsters to cause issues. In the end it doesn't take much to go from Party focuses and decimates the Marilith, to the party is struggling and having to blow their big abilities to win. My players in my main group play super tactically, so I play my monsters super tactically to match.

Is that not what some of us are trying to do? Find a way to make it work for our play-style. I think that is the point of the discussion. To point out that 5E out of the box isn't well-designed for experienced, tactically oriented optimizers. It has weak points in monster and adventure design that make it too easy a game. We are pointing out the specific problems. What custom options are a problem, what spells, what class options, and the like.

That may be what you are trying to do, and many people have already given good advice on how to do it that you seem to ignore. If you wanna run less encounters per day, increase the number of monsters in your encounters, choose them wisely and play them tactically to eat resources. If you wanna give your players magic items, increase the monsters HP to account for it. If you wanna throw a single boss fight at your party, give your boss henchmen, legendary resists and actions, and buff up their HP to give them more survivability and more action economy to bring them more in line with the party. If you have a group of optimized players, optimize your monsters and optimize your encounters to match. If you don't like to have 6-8 encounters between long rests, use the rest variant rules to extend rests out to fit in more of the encounters you do want to have. None of it is very hard, it does take a little time but that's what a DM signs up for.

I'm sorry if you can't see the problems with mariliths and balors. I've run them as well against optimized and normal (mean rules as intended) parties, both times it got smoked. My parties tend to control terrain. Only if I do something like Flamestrike did where I make the environment something they can't alter due to power levels outside their control can I change this. The first game we played we had some challenges. As soon as the group found out Smiting and Ranged attacks were number one for offense, every single party they make now is comprised of those types of characters with a bard and some kind of healer support. 5E monsters can't handle optimized parties any better than 3E. So heavy modification is required.

My party always wins, sometimes they plan and come up with tactics that are very good and when they do I generally let them it and sometimes they get an easy win. But more often than not they work for every victory. Just from what you said, I suggest you add a few other demons in with the Marilith or Balor. "Mariliths are often encountered as captains at the head of a demonic horde," is straight out of the monster manual. So select a handful of lesser demons for the Marilith to captain. Since your party likes to control the battlefield, maybe toss in a Barlgura or 2 that have access to entangle and phantasmal force, or maybe Chasme with their drone ability, Vrocks, Shadow demons. All of these have some fun abilities, you put a few of them together with a Marilith and now they have some battlefield control ability, and your party HAS to use battlefield control and deal with more than just focus firing a Marilith. These are all simple things that don't take massive effort as it's just stock monsters from the book, you are just using several together with varying abilities which brings your encounter more in line with what you players can do. Still in the end you have to use those abilities and play as tactically as your players but I guarantee that if you do that, your players won't just smoke them. Past all that, if your players have lots of magic items, I would also consider buffing up the HP of whatever you toss into the encounter just to help offset the increased power your players have from those items. and if your players are REALLY good, I might also consider some legendary actions on the Marilith, specially if it's your 1 encounter that day, other than that you just have to assess your party and figure out if it's really necessary. But that's just my 2cp. My group's Marilith encounter was very fun for me and them.


These threads tend to have a bunch of folks like you thinking we're saying, "5E so bad." While someone like you says, "5E is not bad. You're just dumb." When what's really being discussed is, "What are the optimization options in 5E. How do they affect the game. How do we get them under control. How do we design monsters and challenges for optimized parties because like 3E, 5E can't handle optimizers very well."

The thing is, if they change the system to handle optimizers as the base solution, it will no longer work right for the new players. What I am saying is, the game has everything you need to make it challenging for a party of optimizer. Does it take some time? Sure. 5e is a very resource dependent game and optimized or not, resources still have limits. Increasing the encounters per day will be a good step to reducing your labor, but it's also not the silver bullet depending on your group. Aside from that, add monsters, use strategy, add legendary actions, add Lair actions, and know what your creatures can do before the game starts. You wanna DM for optimizer, then you have to be an optimizer too. Being an experienced DM/player, you should be able to do that where a group of new people likely cannot.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
From what I see my games work just fine, I challenge my players whether it's the experienced longtime group or the newb group. I use what they have given us and either toss out stock monsters and encounters for one group or beefed up monsters and encounters for the other. It's really not that difficult.
There's talent and/or experience involved in doing it well, and we tend to lose sight of that when we are blessed with a sufficiency of either or both. ;)

The thing is, if they change the system to handle optimizers as the base solution, it will no longer work right for the new players.
Well, not exactly. For one thing, there's hardly a 'base solution,' at all. There's some guidelines, they happen to assume 6-8 encounters (small/easy* & run TotM) and 2-3 short rests between long rests and no feats or MCing or magic items, but they're not hard-coded, you need to actively use them as the DM (and even then they're not terribly dependable, the onus of running a good game is very much on you, not the system).

A good enough (or "not too bad," I don't want to imply it's that rarefied a skill) DM can certainly make that work for new players. That's probably not a new DM, but, IMHO, the paradigm is new players playing with experienced players & DMs in organized play, first. It's just good for building the brand.

You wanna DM for optimizer, then you have to be an optimizer too. Being an experienced DM/player, you should be able to do that where a group of new people likely cannot.
That was very true of 3.x & PF, which, I think, is where Celtavian's expectations came from. 5e is not a game that invites the DM to optimize, to challenge PCs head-to-head may the best number-cruncher win. Rather, 5e invites the DM to be arbitrary, to challenge the PCs just precisely as much as they need to be challenged to have fun. That can be a perplexing paradigm shift, I think.






* "medium-to-hard" = 'easy' in this context.
 

mpwylie

First Post
Well, not exactly. For one thing, there's hardly a 'base solution,' at all. There's some guidelines, they happen to assume 6-8 encounters (small/easy* & run TotM) and 2-3 short rests between long rests and no feats or MCing or magic items, but they're not hard-coded, you need to actively use them as the DM (and even then they're not terribly dependable, the onus of running a good game is very much on you, not the system).

Sorry, Base "solution" was probably not the best choice of words but I couldn't come up with a better one. It's not a "solution" but it is a set of assumptions and guidelines that if implemented, do work. Now D&D is a game with a quite a lot of variables so using the stock monsters, the base assumptions, and guidelines you may not hit the bulls eye ever time, but you will hit the target. But if you mess with even 1 of those things, it has drastic repercussions. But it's also very easy to anticipate the effects of deviation from those assumptions and tweak to mitigate. New folks can start with the base assumptions and play the game. As they play and learn they may slowly veer away from those assumptions but they should also have learned enough to mitigate them. It's likely the root of the whole issue, people coming in and not using the assumptions to start and not having enough experience in the system to recognize and account for it.

That was very true of 3.x & PF, which, I think, is where Celtavian's expectations came from. 5e is not a game that invites the DM to optimize, to challenge PCs head-to-head may the best number-cruncher win. Rather, 5e invites the DM to be arbitrary, to challenge the PCs just precisely as much as they need to be challenged to have fun. That can be a perplexing paradigm shift, I think.

IDK, I guess that's the difference, and you are likely right. Optimizing in the 3.x/PF sense was taking skills for a mathmatical advantage. for a 5e DM, optimizing is about encounter design and playing your monsters optimally. I don't want "to challenge PCs head-to-head may the best number-cruncher win", I want "Challenge the PCs head-to-head, may the best strategist/tactician win(Except of course I always want my players to win:) )". Math is easy, strategy is not.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Sorry, Base "solution" was probably not the best choice of words but I couldn't come up with a better one. It's not a "solution" but it is a set of assumptions and guidelines that if implemented, do work.
Nod. It's hard to sum up in a way that doesn't risk unreasonable expectations, perhaps... There's something there, and you (as DM) can work with it, and potentially get a lot of out of it, but you can't just phone it in...
:shrug:

Now D&D is a game with a quite a lot of variables so using the stock monsters, the base assumptions, and guidelines you may not hit the bulls eye ever time, but you will hit the target. But if you mess with even 1 of those things, it has drastic repercussions.
See, that makes it sound like it's made of glass. Like it's all clear crystalline perfection until you change one little thing and it shatters into razor-sharp shards, leaving you campaign tattered and bleeding profusely. ;)

It's subtler than that, it's always a balancing act, weather you stick to guidelines or strike out on your own. And, one point: it's not particularly more work or 'risk' or whatever to do the latter.

It's likely the root of the whole issue, people coming in and not using the assumptions to start and not having enough experience in the system to recognize and account for it.
I can see that, sure. Seems to me that Cletavian & his crew have plenty of experience, though.

IDK, I guess that's the difference, and you are likely right. Optimizing in the 3.x/PF sense was taking skills for a mathmatical advantage. for a 5e DM, optimizing is about encounter design and playing your monsters optimally.
Optimizing in one sense means getting the most out of the rules. Implicit in that is sticking to them. In 3e, players and DMs could both optimize - monsters were built with rules very similar to PCs and the DM could optimize them, even mirroring PC abuses, for instance, in a sort of brinksmanship (yes, you can pull that cheesy combo, but then your enemies might start, too...).

5e players need to stick to the rules more or less (those the DM has chosen to use, opt into, ban or modify - and as he interprets them) and can still go through the optimization process. But, the DM doesn't face many rules at all in designing a monster or encounter - some guidelines at worst - he can be positively arbitrary about challenging the party, indeed, he can't really be anything else, so the onus is very much on him to get that challenge right. The game doesn't do it for him, it's not paint by numbers.
 

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