D&D 5E Classic High Level Threats?

Tony Vargas said:

It can take a while to even want high level play. There's an impetus to try a new character and new options for instance, when the game is new. And of course, it's expected to start at 1st level and it naturally takes time to bring a character to high levels 'legitimately' from there. So it's hardly surprising that there haven't been a lot of high level campaigns only 2 years in.

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I think they were hoping to mitigate the effect of those details by asking what level people expect their 5th edition campaigns to end at, but likely fell short in doing so by not asking why that was the expectation in clear enough detail to tell the difference between "I think it's not really possible to play higher level than that satisfactorily" and "I'm going to cut of the campaign early so we can all try some other stuff sooner."

Tony Vargas said:

If you're playing a game that strongly reminds you of the game you loved 25-40 years ago, but that always found a lot less lovable after 9th level, it's understandable if you don't try to play through to 20th. It's not even irrational, Vancian magic seems, if anything, even less 'restrained' than back in the day, hps balloon even faster - the old problems seem like they'd be present.

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I think that sums up why I don't have any problems with 5th edition at the range I've played it (or, more accurately, run it, up to 13th level so far) and don't see any problems coming up before, or after, 20th level - because my "back in the day" editions (2nd and BECMI) both were enjoyable all the way through (at least up to 50th in 2nd, and 36th in BECMI).

dave2008 said:

I think that is the next monster I am going to convert, but is it iconic? I had never heard of it until I picked up the Epic Level Handbook a few months ago. Now I skipped the 3e/3.5e area so maybe they were featured in a big way in that edition (don't recall a 4e version). I think they are pretty interesting, but I think it might be a stretch to call them iconic.

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Considering the origins of the Worm That Walks are with Kyuss, who has a long history with D&D: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyuss_(Greyhawk) then yeah I'm comfortable saying it's iconic.

I mean I also skipped 3e, so I know less about it and I never owned the Epic Level Handbook, and I still know about the Worm That Walks thanks to the Age of Worms adventure path.

But I think this demonstrates how defining something as iconic is such a slippery slope. Iconic to whom? In what way? Which part of the game is it iconic to?

AaronOfBarbaria said:

I think they were hoping to mitigate the effect of those details by asking what level people expect their 5th edition campaigns to end at, but likely fell short in doing so by not asking why that was the expectation in clear enough detail to tell the difference between "I think it's not really possible to play higher level than that satisfactorily" and "I'm going to cut of the campaign early so we can all try some other stuff sooner."

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Those would have been good additional questions.

my "back in the day" editions (2nd and BECMI) both were enjoyable all the way through (at least up to 50th in 2nd, and 36th in BECMI).

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Yeah, those would have been among the editions that, with 10+ year runs under their belts, would have been the subject of the surveys WotC did ahead of 3e that showed people rarely playing past 10th levels. So you were clearly in the 'rarely' tail of that sample, and thus have different expectations.

Any surveys of 5e players, today, less than 3 years into the run, though, have to be biased by the above factors. Try again after 10+ years and see if it holds like it did for the classic game and 3e.

Ideas off the top of my head for high-level campaigns. Best to use two or more at the the same time to provide some variety and extra chaos.

Illithid resurgence: the illithids really did shift their empire forward by thousands of years instead of dying. Lots of weird aberrations, CR 7 illithids as common as human foot soldiers, plus high-level illithids with class levels on an illithid chassis. (Imagine illithid fighters with Action Surge and Extra Attack 2!) Armies of githyanki might or might not make an appearance, either as allies of the PCs or as omnicidal maniacs.

Demon invasion: someone accidentally left the door open to Baator and the Abyss and the demons are boiling out. Humans are being crushed and crowded out by demons as the Blood War spills onto the Prime Material plane. Even better if the "someone" responsible is one of the PCs who was hungry for power. Maybe he got access to Blackrazor and gave in to its desires to claim souls, and now... oops, side effects. The Yugoloths offer their services to both sides, or maybe even to the humans if the humans can think of something they might want...

War of the Lance: classic dragon war a la Dragonlance. Basically an excuse to have skies full of adult dragons and/or human riders, plus CR 4-7 Draconians. Stolen dragon eggs, etc.

Vodoni Incursion: werewolves from spaaaaace! The Vodoni Empire and its countless hordes of high-level wizard transmuters and battleraged lycanthropes decides to annex the PCs' home world via spelljamming or planewalking invasion. The PCs' best bet for survival might be to leave their homeland under guerilla leadership while the PCs leave to hunt down ancient beholder doomsday weapons and turn them against the Vodoni.

Second Unhuman War: also a space invasion, but this time it's the orcs and goblinoids who are itching for payback after the first Unhuman War a thousand years ago. Arrogant, close-minded Elvish allies (and/or traitors) may feature heavily in the campaign, plus weird bioweapons like bionoids, witchlight marauders, spirit warriors, etc. Logistics are likely to be a factor--it doesn't matter how many HP you regain on a long rest when your ship gets blown out from under you and you're left drifting through the void with only three days' worth of water and twelve hours' worth of air... Just remember--since spelljamming ships are so rare and expensive, anybody you meet in spaaaace is probably either a legend of some kind back on their home planet or in the entourage of a legend, and that's as true for orcs as it is for the PCs. Go nuts with the goblinoid NPCs with class levels. Orcish planetary-class shamans (14th-20th level), check. Legendary goblin bardlocks (15th-20th level), check. Kobold sharpshooters par excellence (12th+ level with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert), check.

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In my opinion, all (or almost all) of the classic have been identified. Of course I am not counting those from the epic handbook or other such panaphranelia. But why is it that high level play is often shuned by DM and players alike?

The answer is two fold. First, the amount of work needed for a DM to successfully create such a campaing is almost crazy. Options in the hands of the players are almost limitless and relatively little will be hidden from them. At these levels, players versatility is something to reckon with.

The second part of the answer comes directly from how D&D 5ed has been built. It was built for campaings under or ending at 15th level. The writers said so themselves.

But is it possible to have these high level threats challenge players without over doing it?
Yes, but the amount of work is really high and the DM must be careful not to shut down players habilities for the sake of doing so.

In one of my highest campaing, the players had to slay a fallen ArchDevil that was attempting a return to the graces of Asmodeus. They had been foiling his plan since their first level and now they needed to invade his abode in hell. With the help of divinations, they knew full well the layout of the fortress (save some secret passages and some protected rooms). They had summoned devils and forced them to tell them most (if not all ) of what they knew. If the Archdevil Rathabaxus had his way, the Nine Hells would have become 10... quite a shift in the powers on the planes.

To get to Rathabaxus, the players had to get the help of an Angelic Army. A direct assault from themselves would only have resulted in their death. Literally thousands of devils were in the services of Rathabaxus, not counting the lieutenants and high level servants. They used their knowledge to finally get to the Archdevil and his closest lieutenants. The fight was hard and they almost died. There were different traps and mystical protection to get into the forteress including a teleport trap that could have insta killed the players. Through their divinations they knew the "safest" way but it was far from easy. Players had to act fast as they only had two hours to complete the task before the angelic army was forced to retreat as other devils would have come to the fray (not to help but to have a chance to kill angels. Hate runs deep in the fiends...).

All that to say that the difficulty does not lie in the abscence of knowledge but in what to do with that knowledge. A lich can be quite a killer or a simple and easy obstacle to overcome. Epic plays does not necessarily need unbeatable monster, it needs unbeatable odds if some clever thinking and planing is not used. Unfortunately, it requires a lot of the DM free time to make such adventures.
That means no 5 minutes preps to make an adventure. You need much more than that. I estimate about 2.5hours of preparation for each hours of expected play. More or less. High/epic level adventures are not for the lazy DM. Maybe it is why we don't see these kind of adventures in 5ed APs.

I'm rather fond of the Atropal.

Jester David said:

The Worm that Walks is Kyuss, from the 1e Fiend Folio IIRC.
It's spawned a cheesy metal band, and is the trope namer of a TV Tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWormThatWalks

That's pretty iconic I guess.

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No he wasn't talking about Kyuss. He specifically mentioned the Worm that Walks from the Epic Level Handbook which is a generic aberration created when a powerful spellcaster dies with unspent spells. There is even a template provided.

Quickleaf said:

Considering the origins of the Worm That Walks are with Kyuss, who has a long history with D&D: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyuss_(Greyhawk) then yeah I'm comfortable saying it's iconic.

I mean I also skipped 3e, so I know less about it and I never owned the Epic Level Handbook, and I still know about the Worm That Walks thanks to the Age of Worms adventure path.

But I think this demonstrates how defining something as iconic is such a slippery slope. Iconic to whom? In what way? Which part of the game is it iconic to?

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The Worm that Walks is a "generic" aberration in the Epic Level Handbook (there is even a template for making unique ones), it is not a reference to Kyuss. I agree that Kyuss is iconic, but I was going to list every iconic Named epic level creature. I didn't take that as the intent of the OP.

Quickleaf said:

But I think this demonstrates how defining something as iconic is such a slippery slope. Iconic to whom? In what way? Which part of the game is it iconic to?

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If it was featured in an AP I would call it iconic and more so it was given stats over multiple editions like Kyuss has. Kyuss is iconic, however, the Worm that Walks from the Epic Level Handbook is not. Given the amount of confusion in this thread alone I think we have proven that.