D&D 5E [GUIDE] NADRIGOL's Melee Bladesinger Guide

Actually the difference on average damage in a full attack round gets smaller if both use only one rapier and instead of warcaster feat INT +2 is taken:

Pure Bladesinger average damage with one rapier at level 20:
2xd8 + 5 +5 (DEX) + 5 +5 (INT Song of victory) = 29

Pallysinger average damage with one rapier at level 20:
2xd8 +5+5 (DEX) + 3 + 3 (INT Song of victory) = 25

Ovarwa said:

Hi,

Interesting guide.

Maybe the guide could be renamed, to reflect that it is less a Bladesinger guide as much as it is a guide to Gishing as a Bladesinger. From the former perspective, going Wizard 20 is totally awesome: You get all your wizard spell goodness on time because you didn't multiclass, plus you get extra defense (very nice for wizards), plus you get some stabitystabstab backup ability when you want or need it. Sky blue, not ordinary blue. From the latter perspective, yeah, just ordinary blue: Whether you intend to concentrate on spells (Traditional Wizard on your list) or want melee to be your first option (Pure Bladesinger), clearly there are better choices... for a subset of Bladesingers. Traditional Wizard: Sky blue, but that's not what your guide covers.

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I hear what you're saying. I actually put no thought into the title of this guide... So I've added "Melee" to the title. To your point, I think this makes the ratings of the playstyles more clear.

Ovarwa said:

Paladin/Bladesinger: Compared to the similar Paladin2/AbjurerX, I think this does not deserve a sky blue rating. The latter gets to ignore Dex because he can wear plate. He's a bit less MAD. He can also hope for items that increase Str, and can actually get full use out of a wizard's staff (or paladin's sword). Weapon choices are rather nice too. Racial choices are also friendly, including an anti-Hobson's Choice: Half-elf for +2Cha+1Int+1Str or VHuman for +1Int+1Str and Heavy Armor Mastery? The Bladesinger version can be made to work, even work well, but... ordinary blue.

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I have to disagree on this point. Yes the Abjurer can wear plate, but even starting with 16 Dex and Int, the Bladesinger would have higher AC, and a lot more room to grow that AC. That AC difference can be really important when such a low HP class is maining melee. The strength item is an interesting thought, but the damage bump from the weapon switch is small compared to the total smite output. I think the degree to which Bladesingers are expected to be more melee capable than Abjurer's indicates their Pally-Singer potential. Not saying they're particularly more capable than Abjurer's, but I think in the context of building a melee Bladesinger, the Smite-Singer build has the defence/DPR/casting potential to hit Sky Blue.

Ovarwa said:

Finally, the basic types at the top of the guide lack an entry for the apparently obvious F1/BSX or F2/BSX. I suppose those can pass as multi-class abominations, but seem far less of a stretch than the P/BS build, which is a poster child for Weird Multiclass Entities from Beyond that Just Might Work in our Dimension.


Just me,

Ken

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I tried to keep the build section specific-multiclass-independent (the unavoidable exception being the Smite-Singer). Since F1-2/BSX could be integrated into any of these playstyles, I don't want to give it it's own category. That said, I can see now re-reading the section that these thoughts could be more clear. I'll put some time into a revision.

Schattenriss said:

GarrettKP

I see what you mean. I am actually not a fan of the dual wielded feat. But I can see my bladesinger using 2short swords. As far as damage is concerned, the character loses 3 points in average (3 attacks with shorts swords = 3d6 vs. 3 rapieriers with d8). But I get one feat back. So one could still do fighting with two weapons but without the dual wielder feat. Instead you could take either mobile or a feat suiting your resilent feat.

if a fighter 1/bladesinger X is build, you would have the proficiency in con save (starting in fighter). I am thinking to take mobile (too many options granted by this feat: booming blade, green flame blade, escape line...) and Beyond that, Either
a) mobile, warcaster, DEX+2, DEX+2, In+2 are taken or
b) mobile, DEX+2, DEX +2, INT +2, INT +2 are taken.

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The Dual Wielder hate is real... and totally reasonable. I don't think I ever fully internalised this. The single point of damage difference on average is not huge... Especially since a Dex or Int (late level) ASI would yield the same damage buff, while applying bumps across the character sheet. I will try to work this opinion into the guide.

I also want to point out that I feel you've missed another very good Multiclass option for Singers, the Rogue. Expertise, Sneak Attack and Cunning Action are all features worth mentioning for a Hit and Run singer.


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Schattenriss said:

in essence for me the difference is not that big. Both have full spell casting, same usage of cantrips. The pure bladesinger has the better spell casting abilities, whereas the pallysinger has a much higher damage potential in melee.

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Your last point is the only one that matters for the Smite-Singer. The build is all about Nova damage. I would never play a Pally-Singer as a Traditional Wizard, only in a full melee build. The Pally multiclass is going to have a small cost everywhere else on the sheet, but it's worth it for the Nova potential. Really thinking about it, I'd probably say you'd still have to build for TWF, just to increase the smite potential. The beauty of pulling this build with Bladesinger is that it's one of the only full spellcasting classes with the defence/melee potential necessary (obviously not the only option as Ovarwa's Abjurer comment pointed out).

GarrettKP said:

I also want to point out that I feel you've missed another very good Multiclass option for Singers, the Rogue. Expertise, Sneak Attack and Cunning Action are all features worth mentioning for a Hit and Run singer.

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Well I did cover the Rogue in the multiclass section. I just don't think it's particularly strong. Expertise is really cool, but far more relevant in certain campaigns and without much combat potential. Sneak Attack offers some potential damage bonus, but it's small at first, and only scales if you sink more levels into Rogue. Cunning Action takes two levels of dip, but I agree it's great (mostly for disengage), but it is in competition for your BA. Spending an ASI on Mobile would give you similar capability without costing your BA. Taking Rogue to 3 for Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork might be worth it (I did give this Sky Blue), as it frees the ASI you could have spent on Mobile, and in combination with the prior Rogue Features might be worth a three level dip.

NADRIGOL said:

Well I did cover the Rogue in the multiclass section. I just don't think it's particularly strong. Expertise is really cool, but far more relevant in certain campaigns and without much combat potential. Sneak Attack offers some potential damage bonus, but it's small at first, and only scales if you sink more levels into Rogue. Cunning Action takes two levels of dip, but I agree it's great (mostly for disengage), but it is in competition for your BA. Spending an ASI on Mobile would give you similar capability without costing your BA. Taking Rogue to 3 for Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork might be worth it (I did give this Sky Blue), as it frees the ASI you could have spent on Mobile, and in combination with the prior Rogue Features might be worth a three level dip.

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I must have missed that. My apologies.


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Hi,

NADRIGOL said:

I have to disagree on this point. Yes the Abjurer can wear plate, but even starting with 16 Dex and Int, the Bladesinger would have higher AC, and a lot more room to grow that AC. That AC difference can be really important when such a low HP class is maining melee. The strength item is an interesting thought, but the damage bump from the weapon switch is small compared to the total smite output. I think the degree to which Bladesingers are expected to be more melee capable than Abjurer's indicates their Pally-Singer potential. Not saying they're particularly more capable than Abjurer's, but I think in the context of building a melee Bladesinger, the Smite-Singer build has the defence/DPR/casting potential to hit Sky Blue.

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Higher AC only some of the time , since heavy armor is always competitive with light+dex. And a Pa/Abj who starts with HAM is very durable starting at level 1, with HAM stacking eventually with Abjurer's tempHP shield, both of which come in handy when it comes time to maintain concentration. And a Pa/Abj might be less resource intensive, since a sufficiently early ogre belt means that no ASIs need to go for Str, which leaves 2 ASIs for Int and 2 for feats. (Warcaster plus shield is an interesting option, which does a fine job boosting AC even more. But so is GWM. And so is a grapple wizard.) So more versatile and less resource intensive. I'm not sure either is sky blue. Smite seems nice, but is that 3rd level slot better for Haste or for a Smite? (I think you want Haste.) I think you might even prefer Haste for a 4th level slot. You also aren't going to be smiting with spell slots reserved for Shield and Mirror Image and similar spells, which are kind of critical to making a Bladesinger, um, sing. So Smite ain't all that, even before considering all the other wizardly uses for those slots. BTW, Fighter 1 provides a Fighting Style (wider selection, including for 2WF, which you seem to like; no judgment), all armor and weapons, Con saves, and your choice of Dex or Str, which means that you lose no ASIs and defer ASIs by one level instead of 2. Bringing us to...

I tried to keep the build section specific-multiclass-independent (the unavoidable exception being the Smite-Singer). Since F1-2/BSX could be integrated into any of these playstyles, I don't want to give it it's own category. That said, I can see now re-reading the section that these thoughts could be more clear. I'll put some time into a revision.

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How is Smite-Singer unavoidable? Delete, backspace, control-X or just not typing it in... eminently avoidable! But once you're including Pa2/BSX up at the top, F1/BSX and even F2/BSX deserve equal billing. Maybe even Ro2/BSX, for that extra dodge. Anyway, Ken

Thanks for the Guide. I am currently rolling with a Elf Bladesinger for Storm King's Thunder.

Looking forward to applying some of these thoughts and theories.

Some updates for the guide.

I've finally combed the rapier bias that stemmed from too much Dual Wielder love from the guide. This included a revised Math section with tables for many combinations of primary build elements discussed in the guide.

The spreadsheet is soooooo much cooler now. It does a lot more thinking for you. By editing just the red text cells, the rest of the table will auto-calculate. The rules and assumptions for this are addressed in the Math section.

I added quick reviews for the Races found in Volo's Guide to Monsters. Don't think their will be any surprises there.

Slowly adding some more UA content. There's not a lot that has huge influence on the guide. Mostly just considering class variants in the multiclass section. This will be a slow integration, but I think the most exciting/relevant options were already in the guide. If there are particular combo's you've thought of, ping me and I'll add my opinion of them.

I cleaned up some of the opening sections slightly to make the direction and niche of my guide more clear in an attempt to satisfy some of the thoughts presented in comments.

Some side notes scattered throughout to address some RAW concerns that I've seen pop up in a few groups that I thought should be addressed somewhere in the guide.

I've probably made some other little changes and lost track of them. Hope it makes someone happy!