Need an alternative to D&D.

Celebrim · Dec 1, 2016

Dannyalcatraz said:
The weaknesses...LONG character generation process.

I would say that in and of itself, a long character generation process is not a big problem as it doesn't interfere with play and is just a sunk cost. It renders the game less accessible to new players, but it doesn't impact play much.

The real problem I have with HERO is that the GM must be absolutely fully comfortable with winging and improvising almost everything, because any burden you put on a player, impacts a GM twenty-fold. If deciding how to do something is a lengthy process, it takes the GM 20 times longer because the GM has a much larger and ongoing preparation burden. The massive amount of preparation time in HERO limits the sort of preparation a GM can do, and Celebrim's Second Law of RPGs is that how you prepare to play a game and how you think about playing the game is as important as the rules. HERO's massive preparation burden forces the sort of game you can play much more severely than rules light systems do simply by making it all but impossible to do certain styles of preparation.

Time saving in a system like HERO is just about everything from a GM's perspective. Compare with 1e AD&D were the crunch presents almost no burden to the GM for the presumed style of play, or a more crunchy system like 3e D&D where many GMs became frustrated with feeling that they couldn't treat monster generation with the granularity provided for and seemingly expected by the rules. Both 4e and 5e have tended to back away from that expectation that the rest of the world is as granular as the PCs.

Ralif Redhammer · Dec 1, 2016

It might not be quite as crunchy as 5e, but I adore Castles & Crusades. Originating during the 3e era, it's a simpler, more old school take.

For something a bit more different, the Titansgrave or Fantasy AGE games might do the trick.

doctorbadwolf · Dec 1, 2016

knasser said:
Thanks. I would never have thought of looking at Mutants and Masterminds. I actually have the 3rd edition. Well, kind of - I have the DC edition because of my players was interested in a comic book game and I think it was cheap. I read through it and was impressed by how flexible it was. Also that it seemed to scale well to different power levels. The supplement seems interesting. It locks things down to Power Level 6. I'll have to refresh my memory on how it all works and see how they approach magic.

GURPS is so obvious I could kick myself. I've heard of it, never played it. Again, I'll take a look.

Hero is the one with the 4 million page rule-book, yes?

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy just Kickstartered an update, and it looks great.

Mine thing you could do is look into the Adventures in Middle Earth book by cubicle 7, steal its journey rule and some of its downtime stuff, and then switch from awarding XP for killing things, and instead award XP for completing quests, achieving milestones, gaining allies and resolving conflicts.

Games like The Dresden Files do a lot of what you want better than DnD, but most of all of it can be ported to 5e, if you have the time.

kalil · Dec 1, 2016

Based on statements made above I think you should look into Runequest 6, recently relaunched under the new name Mythras. Might be a good fit for your playstyle.

Celebrim · Dec 1, 2016

doctorbadwolf said:
Games like The Dresden Files do a lot of what you want better than DnD, but most of all of it can be ported to 5e, if you have the time.

Dresden Files uses the Spirit of the Century system which is intended to support a very different style of play than D&D and will be much further away from what the OP seems to want to run than seems warranted. None of the problems 'Spirit of the Century' is intended to solve has really even been mentioned by the OP, and some of the areas he seems particularly concerned about are 'handled' only in the sense that they aren't even concerns of the system.

Sword of Spirit · Dec 1, 2016

Take a look at this.

Free (previously commercial), high quality, long pedigree, etc. Some of the other suggestions are really good, and you can look at the basic system for most of them online before you buy them if that's important to you. (At this point in my life, researching a product before shelling out cash on it is important to me, so I always include that consideration. If it isn't important to you, then buy them all to make your bookshelf have more RPGs on it--my teenage self's approach.)

doctorbadwolf · Dec 1, 2016

Celebrim said:
Dresden Files uses the Spirit of the Century system which is intended to support a very different style of play than D&D and will be much further away from what the OP seems to want to run than seems warranted. None of the problems 'Spirit of the Century' is intended to solve has really even been mentioned by the OP, and some of the areas he seems particularly concerned about are 'handled' only in the sense that they aren't even concerns of the system.

I've converted elements of narrative games like Dresden to DnD pretty easily. Sadly I never grabbed my own copy of Dresden, and haven't played in about 5 years, but if I could convert things like how contacts work to DnD, it should be trivial to do so for 5e.

Dresden does a better job than DnD of handling things that the OP group spends a lot of time on, like interaction and politics. It's much better at investigation. It's definately worth a read.

doctorbadwolf · Dec 1, 2016

Ask 13th Age is a great DnDesque system that has a bit more non combat depth than standard DnD.

GMMichael · Dec 1, 2016

Celebrim said:
Celebrim's First Law of RPGs is that how you prepare to play a game and how you think about playing the game is as important as the rules.

I'd be interested in hearing the rest of these.

Also, here's some good crunch for free, but definitely worth pitching a good $50 toward: Zweihander, Grim and Perilous RPG.

Regarding the perception, the GM prep, the too many pages, dungeons-only, and 5e grognards problems, see my signature

Ralif Redhammer · Dec 1, 2016

I was a player in a Dresden Files RPG campaign and it was a lot of fun. Except for one part…anyone playing a wizard very quickly becomes overpowered. To the point that I started to feel like I was playing the sidekick. I get that it matches the source material, but man, was it a bummer, and a glaring design flaw.

doctorbadwolf said:
I've converted elements of narrative games like Dresden to DnD pretty easily. Sadly I never grabbed my own copy of Dresden, and haven't played in about 5 years, but if I could convert things like how contacts work to DnD, it should be trivial to do so for 5e.

Dresden does a better job than DnD of handling things that the OP group spends a lot of time on, like interaction and politics. It's much better at investigation. It's definately worth a read.