Westworld [spoilers]

Imaculata · Dec 10, 2016

Morrus said:
I understand that. I just feel it's vague and weak.

I kind of understand where the Man in Black is coming from. It is one of the reasons I stopped playing Guild Wars 2.

Going on a small MMO tangent for just a bit, but GW2 was sold on the promise that the world could change. Instead of quests resetting and repeating every few minutes, like in most MMO's, the creators of GW2 promised a world that actually has dynamic events, where players affect and change the world. Once it turned out that this wasn't the case, I quickly found myself just as bored as the Man in Black. There were no stakes or consequences. Quests would reset almost as quickly as they had been completed, and thus the game had become exactly what the creators had promised it wouldn't be.

It is hard to feel like a hero when everyone is doing exactly the same heroic deeds as you, and the world immediately forgets about your heroic deeds the moment they are completed. It is obvious to me that the show takes its inspiration from MMO's, and it addresses a common problem with the genre. West World basically is an MMO. And much like in a videogame, nothing ever changes, and the challenges are all fake. There are no real risks.

This kind of explains why a lot of people embrace games like Dark Souls, where there is no hand holding, and you have to live with your choices. I don't feel the Man in Black's motives are weak. And I suspect many MMO players can probably empathize with him, even if he's presented as sort of a villain (I'm not convinced yet that he is a villain though).

The show tells us how the Man in Black started as a normal player, who was captivated by a wonderful illusion. He even fell in love with one of the hosts. But in the world of West World there are no coincidences. Any romance with a host is scripted and set up as a quest hook, just like in a videogame. I think the Man in Black thinks that Arnold had a different game in mind, and that is why he has been chasing this "maze" throughout the show. I've often found myself in the same position in MMO's, hunting after intangible secrets that no player may have discovered. As long as a game can maintain the illusion of mystery and surprise, it remains captivating. But once that bubble is shattered, it all falls apart.

Morrus · Dec 10, 2016

Imaculata said:
I kind of understand where the Man in Black is coming from. It is one of the reasons I stopped playing Guild Wars 2.

Going on a small MMO tangent for just a bit, but GW2 was sold on the promise that the world could change. Instead of quests resetting and repeating every few minutes, like in most MMO's, the creators of GW2 promised a world that actually has dynamic events, where players affect and change the world. Once it turned out that this wasn't the case, I quickly found myself just as bored as the Man in Black. There were no stakes or consequences. Quests would reset almost as quickly as they had been completed, and thus the game had become exactly what the creators had promised it wouldn't be.

It is hard to feel like a hero when everyone is doing exactly the same heroic deeds as you, and the world immediately forgets about your heroic deeds the moment they are completed. It is obvious to me that the show takes its inspiration from MMO's, and it addresses a common problem with the genre. West World basically is an MMO. And much like in a videogame, nothing ever changes, and the challenges are all fake. There are no real risks.

This kind of explains why a lot of people embrace games like Dark Souls, where there is no hand holding, and you have to live with your choices. I don't feel the Man in Black's motives are weak. And I suspect many MMO players can probably empathize with him, even if he's presented as sort of a villain (I'm not convinced yet that he is a villain though).

The show tells us how the Man in Black started as a normal player, who was captivated by a wonderful illusion. He even fell in love with one of the hosts. But in the world of West World there are no coincidences. Any romance with a host is scripted and set up as a quest hook, just like in a videogame. I think the Man in Black thinks that Arnold had a different game in mind, and that is why he has been chasing this "maze" throughout the show. I've often found myself in the same position in MMO's, hunting after intangible secrets that no player may have discovered. As long as a game can maintain the illusion of mystery and surprise, it remains captivating. But once that bubble is shattered, it all falls apart.

The problem is that William (the MiB) owns the company. He's not a random player. That's why his motivation feels weak.

MarkB · Dec 10, 2016

Morrus said:
The problem is that William (the MiB) owns the company. He's not a random player. That's why his motivation feels weak.

That gives him a lot of access - but not total access. It's made clear from the corporate-maneuvering side of the storyline that, although Delos bought a majority stake in the park, they never quite wrested control of either it or its secrets away from Ford. He still ran it as his own private kingdom, and still carefully guarded the proprietary designs of the Hosts, using a combination of subterfuge, threats and his own ingenuity to prevent anyone from ousting him. William was well aware that if he tried to force Ford's hand, there was a good chance that Ford could bring the whole place down and destroy whatever deeper meanings it might hold.

Morrus · Dec 10, 2016

MarkB said:
That gives him a lot of access - but not total access. It's made clear from the corporate-maneuvering side of the storyline that, although Delos bought a majority stake in the park, they never quite wrested control of either it or its secrets away from Ford. He still ran it as his own private kingdom, and still carefully guarded the proprietary designs of the Hosts, using a combination of subterfuge, threats and his own ingenuity to prevent anyone from ousting him. William was well aware that if he tried to force Ford's hand, there was a good chance that Ford could bring the whole place down and destroy whatever deeper meanings it might hold.

That's why it's weak and vague. His multi billion dollar majority stake is worth less to him that for vague mumbo jumbo?

I get that that's what he script says. But it's weak.

MarkB · Dec 11, 2016

Morrus said:
That's why it's weak and vague. His multi billion dollar majority stake is worth less to him that for vague mumbo jumbo?

I get that that's what he script says. But it's weak.

But it's not vague mumbo jumbo. When he thought he'd seen more than just a mere game, he was right. It's just that he was right for the wrong reasons. Whereas he came to believe that what he'd glimpsed in Dolores was a hint of a deeper, more complex game, what he actually saw was the beginning of a deeper, more complex person - a programmed machine on its way to developing into a true living being. There was a deeper truth to the park than the games he was playing, but it wasn't something aimed at him, or at any human player.

Morrus · Dec 11, 2016

MarkB said:
But it's not vague mumbo jumbo. When he thought he'd seen more than just a mere game, he was right. It's just that he was right for the wrong reasons. Whereas he came to believe that what he'd glimpsed in Dolores was a hint of a deeper, more complex game, what he actually saw was the beginning of a deeper, more complex person - a programmed machine on its way to developing into a true living being. There was a deeper truth to the park than the games he was playing, but it wasn't something aimed at him, or at any human player.

But...so?"I, the owner of the company, think I spotted that there's something screwy going on with my robots. So I'm gonna spend 40 years searching for the centre of some metaphorical maze rather than just ask my employees to look into it."Or, if he wanted "more", he could just think "Hey, I want more. I'll ask my programmers to program some risk and danger into it!"I understand what they (and you) say his motive is. I just think it's weak and hard to believe.

Imaculata · Dec 11, 2016

He owns a large stake of the park, but that doesn't mean he has access to all the park's secrets, or that he owns the entire park. I don't think it works that way. They are not his employees I think. Plus, I think the show has made it clear that whatever secrets the Man in Black is looking for, he does not believe Ford or the current company have the answers. He believes that Arnold took those secrets to his grave.

CAFRedblade · Dec 12, 2016

He witnessed a spark of cognizance in Delores, and spent 30 years trying to find it again. Hoping the answer might have been at the center of the Maze, but that answer wasn't for him. But he witnessed it again in the final episode during the attack. Have to rewatch to see if he survived, I think it was implied he did not/would not. In reality while he was a main character, he wasn't an important character, kinda a red herring.