D&D 5E Points of Light setting and current cross-over strategy: Round peg in the square hole.

dave2008

Legend
If you are going to post then post the whole description.

As noted, this spell was developed by Khelben Arunsun, the Blackstaff of Waterdeep, as a specific counter to the various Bigby spells which have appeared in the Realms. Whether the mythical Bigby of Greyhawk visited the Realms or Khelben or some other Realmsmage visited Oerth to bring these spells from one world to another
is not known.
The Blackstaff has apparently met the great Bigby at some time in the past, though the meeting was apparently not on the best of terms. As the wizard of Waterdeep once noted to his apprentice Illistar, “The old goat comes up with one good gimmick, and beats it to death with a rock.” Bigby’s response, if any, has never been recorded.

Thank you for posting the full quote. So your are admitting your wrong then, that's very mature of you. +1 for Corpsetaker.

As I am sure you realize the quote is very specific about Bigby either visiting the Realms, or, a Realmsmage visiting Oerth. It is just not sure which one occurred.
 

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dave2008

Legend
Yes I did. You should brush up on your reading.

No you didn't. You haven't said anything about the adventures "For Duty and Diety," "Castel Spulzeer," "The Forgotten Terror, and "Tales from the Infinite Staircase," or Count Gamalon Idogyr, or Code of the Harpers.

In addition, JD mentioned 8 articels written by Ed Greenwood in Dragon and ypu only addressed "an older Dragon mag article...that wasn't even written by Ed Greenwood."

So please clarify how you have addressed these.
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
Laugh Jeff Albertson laughed with this post.

I don't know if you are aware or not since you just seem to enjoy clicking the laugh button so much but it says "laugh with" and not "laugh at" anymore. Each time you click it you aren't getting the desired effect you think you are getting. That's like someone posting 2 + 2 = 4 and you start laughing.

You are essentially making yourself look foolish because you are "laughing with" something that wasn't posted as a joke and you are giving me XP each time you do it.

How about instead of using your laugh button to try and make some joke out of other people, you try and actually post something?
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
Thank you for posting the full quote. So your are admitting your wrong then, that's very mature of you. +1 for Corpsetaker. As I am sure you realize the quote is very specific about Bigby either visiting the Realms, or, a Realmsmage visiting Oerth. It is just not sure which one occurred.
I posted the entire quote to show the inconsistencies in the entire message.
 


dave2008

Legend
To further clarify some off @Jester David 's comments I give you the ToC entries form the Dragon magazines noted:

Dragon #185, pg 56, Magic in the Evening by Ed Greenwood: The two most famous wizards of the Forgotten Realms and Grewhawk campaigns meet at last!

Dragon #188, pg 26, The Wizards Three by Ed Greenwood: A pleasant meeting between three of the worlds' most powerful spell-casters.

Dragon #196, pg 82, Three Wizards to Many by Ed Greenwood: They were powerful, they were wise, they were taking a break! Eliminister, Dalamar, and Mordenkainen trade secrets.

Dragon #200, pg 20, The Wizards Three by Ed Greenwood: The mages entertain a surprise guest.

Dragon #211, pg 82, The Wizards Three by Ed Greenwood: Ed gets another visit from those mirthful mages.

Dragon #238, pg 42, The Return of the Wizards Three by Ed Greenwood: The new Wizards Three meet once more to swap spells over pizza and ice cream.

Dragon #242, pg 48, Jest the Wizards Three by Ed Greenwood: A few little magics from the wizards of Faerun and Oerth.

Dragon #246, pg 86, The Wizards Three by Ed Greenwood: Eliminister, Rautheene, and Mordenkainen meet once more to trade spells and...steal sandwiches?
 
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Staffan

Legend
If you are going to post then post the whole description.

As noted, this spell was developed by Khelben Arunsun, the Blackstaff of Waterdeep, as a specific counter to the various Bigby spells which have appeared in the Realms. Whether the mythical Bigby of Greyhawk visited the Realms or Khelben or some other Realmsmage visited Oerth to bring these spells from one world to another
is not known. The Blackstaff has apparently met the great Bigby at some time in the past, though the meeting was apparently not on the best of terms. As the wizard of Waterdeep once noted to his apprentice Illistar, “The old goat comes up with one good gimmick, and beats it to death with a rock.” Bigby’s response, if any, has never been recorded.

Exactly. That makes it clear that Bigby and Khelben have run into one another, establishing that you can get from one world to the other via plane shift or similar magics (I think in AD&D, teleport without error was generally the spell of choice for planar travel if you were a wizard - plane shift was a priest spell).

Now, I'll willingly admit that planar travel from Al-Toril to Oerth is fairly rare, but it certainly exists. You'll also note that I only used examples from Forgotten Realms material, not Planescape/Spelljammer material.
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
Exactly. That makes it clear that Bigby and Khelben have run into one another, establishing that you can get from one world to the other via plane shift or similar magics (I think in AD&D, teleport without error was generally the spell of choice for planar travel if you were a wizard - plane shift was a priest spell).

Now, I'll willingly admit that planar travel from Al-Toril to Oerth is fairly rare, but it certainly exists. You'll also note that I only used examples from Forgotten Realms material, not Planescape/Spelljammer material.

The point I am trying to make is that if you sift through 30+ years of published work you will occasionally find references of this and it is rare indeed. If this was such a common thing then we would have seen more crossovers in products and novels through all those years. There is TONS of inconsistencies in a lot of it. Mortals can pass between these worlds and yet the gods cannot? There were two Lolths and yet they were considered two separate entities that had nothing to do with each other?

This crossover stuff was never fully played upon for some reason. From the looks of this new Yawning Portal product, it looks as if they are making the Realms into this Sigil like place where all these modules are suddenly common place and that people jump back and forth from Toril to Oerth and beyond.

I could maybe understand if Wizards wrote up this article about something happening in the Realms that suddenly made all these other places accessible to most but they didn't. Now Teleport with Error allowed you to teleport to other planes of existence but that would be like the Plane of Shadow or the like.

From Wikipedia: Like the Planescape setting, Spelljammer unifies most of the other AD&D settings and provides a canonical method for allowing characters from one setting (such as Dragonlance) to travel to another (such as the Forgotten Realms). However, unlike Planescape it keeps all of the action on the Prime Material Plane and uses the crystal spheres, and the "phlogiston" between them, to form natural barriers between otherwise incompatible settings.

Just too many inconsistencies.
 


The point I am trying to make is that if you sift through 30+ years of published work you will occasionally find references of this and it is rare indeed.
No, the point you tried and failed to make was that in "30+ years of published work" it never happened.
We proved it did. Repeatedly. Whether or not it was common is irrelevant. No, it isn't common. It doesn't have to be.

(Oh, and it will be exactly 30 years this May, the anniversary of Darkwalker on Moonshae.)

If this was such a common thing then we would have seen more crossovers in products and novels through all those years. There is TONS of inconsistencies in a lot of it.
You're shifting the goalposts. How common is irrelevant. It happens. Your sudden interest in the "inconsistencies" is attempting to shift the tone of an argument you lost.

Mortals can pass between these worlds and yet the gods cannot? There were two Lolths and yet they were considered two separate entities that had nothing to do with each other?
The gods can. See Tyr. And the entire Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons.

You still have not given a citation for your comment about Lolth. Where did Ed Greeenwood write or say this?
Given it's so contradictory, Ed could be misquoted or made a slip of the tongue. He could be suggesting it was a different aspect of the goddess. Or you could just be outright misremembering like with the Dragon articles.
(Very likely the Greenwood was actually referred to "Tiamat" and not Lolth, as Tiamat was part of the Untheric pantheon, based on the original Sumerian Tiamat. Gygax borrowed the name. Those were very different gods, although that has been retconned and now the Untheric Tiamat is the same as the regular D&D Tiamat. )

This crossover stuff was never fully played upon for some reason.
Likely because there was so very, very much Forgotten Realms to explore that you didn't need to crossover. The focus of the Forgotten Realms products was... the Forgotten Realms. Surprising I know.

Compare this to, oh, Spelljammer where the focus was crossovers. And they devoted an entire book to crossing over with the Realms: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Realmspace

From the looks of this new Yawning Portal product, it looks as if they are making the Realms into this Sigil like place where all these modules are suddenly common place and that people jump back and forth from Toril to Oerth and beyond.
Yes.
Because the alternative is moving all the adventures to the Realms, which they have learned players/ fans did not like as much. So they're doing something to present the adventures in their traditional settings in response to feedback and you're complaining about that.
They really cannot win.

Okay, they could have found an inn in Sigil to use. Or the much more appropriate World Serpent Inn. But the inn isn't really the focus of the product. It's a framing device. A title and some flavour text. Maybe we'll get a map of the inn, but we'll just as easily get no description. Even if they give the Inn a good two-and-a-half pages of text that's still only 1% of the total product. That's nothing. (And more than likely the Yawning Portal will just feature into a one or 1/2 page introduction like Volo in Volo's Guide to Monsters.)
It might as well be "Tales from <Insert Name Here>".

I'm not going to fault them for finding a flimsy excuse to play up the most famous tavern in their lore.

I could maybe understand if Wizards wrote up this article about something happening in the Realms that suddenly made all these other places accessible to most but they didn't. Now Teleport with Error allowed you to teleport to other planes of existence but that would be like the Plane of Shadow or the like.
Well, we'll find out in the Yawning Portal book, won't we? They could explain it there pretty darn easily.
It'd be pretty easy to go from Sigil to Yawning Portal. Or the myriad spells that allow travel. And it's been LONG establish in the Realms that portals and gates are a thing and everywhere (as seen by the Imaskar going all Goa'uld and abducting humans from pre-history for slaves), so it'd be easy to have a portal in the tavern.

Or you travel through a portal from a dungeon in one world into Undermountain, surfacing in the Yawning Portal. Because it's been established their are planar gates in the ruins of Undermountain, as seen in Undermountain: Stardock, the Sargauth Level, the Maze Level, the Terminus Level, and more.

It is a bit of a retcon to the tone of the Yawning Portal. But no more than would be necessary to set it anywhere else, such as the Points of Light setting as you initially suggested, which has even less contact with other worlds. That setting just stole classic dungeons and places and used them to flesh out its backstory. But that runs into the problem WotC is trying to avoid: changing the setting of the classic adventures.
 

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