D&D 4E Changing the Combat Parameters of 4th Edition

AbdulAlhazred · Jan 27, 2017

Myrhdraak said:
So how do I build my encounter? What monster level? How many encounters between each Short Rest? Well as we saw (if we want to mimic 5th Edition adventuring day) we should have maybe 2 to 3 encounters before a short rest. We also saw that we have also increased the expected HP at the end of those encounters to be reduced from 36% (current 4th Edition) level to 25%, i.e. if we run a single encounter the damage output should be (1-0.25)/ (1-0.36)=1.168 or roughly 17% higher. In 4th Edition this would correspond roughly to an Encounter Level of 1 level higher than the character level (Encounter L+1).

However, if you were running 2 encounters before the short rest, it would be 1.168/2=0.584 or roughly 58% of a normal 4th Edition encounter, i.e. an encounter level 3 levels lower than the character party (Encounter L-3). If you were running an adventuring party of 5 players you would have to reduce the number of equal level monsters from 5 to 3 monsters. If we are running a 5 round battle we have now reduced it to 3 rounds.

If we run 3 encounters before a short rest it would be 1.168/3 or 39% or a 4th Edition encounter, i.e. an encounter level 5 levels lower than the character party (Encounter L-5). If you were running an adventuring party of 5 players you would have to reduce the number of equal level monsters from 5 to 2 monsters. Potentially the two ogres we talked about previously. If we are running a 5 round battle we have now reduced it to 2 rounds - the same design goal which 5th Edition had.

However as a DM you might want to pit the party against lower level monsters, rather than just reduced numbers of ogres. Anybody who has played 4th Edition knows that a threat level 5 levels below the party level is no threat, just due to the fact that the monsters would hardly be able to hit the adventuring party. So for this to work - we need bounded accuracy, and we need to make sure that the 4th Edition XP reward for monster level, really mimics the damage output when you apply bounded accuracy to the monsters to hit chance.

I don't think you need bounded accuracy, you simply need to factor into your monster's damage output that they will hit less often, get hit more often, and die faster than monsters in a standard 4e encounter. With that in mind I think you will find that level-1 is probably going to work, or maybe level-2.

However, going back to what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] said. IN EFFECT your '3 encounters' is ONE 4e encounter (literally by RAW as an encounter ends when a short rest happens). So the best way to handle this is to simply design a set of encounters using the 4e encounter design rules! You will then have to jack up its difficulty SOME because one encounter with the bad guys entering piecemeal is obviously not as threatening as a baseline encounter. Still, things will be in the ballpark. Again, this is especially true if your bad guys are lurkers, traps, etc that are likely to get in a blow or two before being annihilated.

Anyway, I don't think your math is off. I think you're just sort of basically round-about arriving at the solution others have come to in the past by trial-and-error. You just did it by math, which is cool!

pemerton · Jan 27, 2017

Myrhdraak said:
the calculation of 4 average battles before an extended rest seems to be the design goal of 4th Edition.

In my play experience, this is an extreme underestimate, especially at paragon tier and above.

I'm also not sure why you are suggesting that a player must spend a HS to recover encounter powers. In my experience, losing healing surges via environmental factors, in skill challenges, etc can already be fairly brutal on the non-defender/low CON PCs. But in those circumstances the players, at least in principle, have the capacity to spend resources to distribute the burden unequally (eg the fighter gives the mage an extra share of food and starves; or carries the mage and so loses two HS to exhaustion while the mage loses none; etc).

Maybe I'm just confused about the starting point: to me, an "encounter" in 4e is the action that occurs between two rests. How that action is divided up within the (imaginary) time of the gameworld is secondary, except that - as [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] points out, and as I think I may have mentioned upthread - a series of fights against one opponent at at time is easier than a single fight against all of them at once.

Consider the following 3 encounter set-ups:

(A) 6 level 6 creatures, which makes for a 7th level encounter for 5 PCs (6*250 = 1500).

(B) 2 6th level creature, which makes makes for a 1st level encounter for 5 PCs (2*250 = 500).

(C) Three "waves" of 2 6th level creatures between rests.

(C), which is three lots of (B), is - in encounter budget terms - no different from (A); although it will actually be easier for the players because they don't have to fight all 8 all at once.

Before introducing a lot of house rules, I would suggest experimenting with variations on (C) to get a sense of what sort of mixing and matching works, what sort of pacing works, etc. And instead of reworking everything for bounded accuracy, you can sub in minions (eg one (C) encounter is a actually a 5th level standard with 6 5th level minions - say, a leader and 6 followers).

I've got nothing against house ruling, but it just seems that for this particular issue there might be an easier pathway readily available.

As to how you ensure that the PCs don't rest between "waves" - make your short rest time longer; make the requirements for a short rest stricter (eg can't do it while heart's are racing in the dungeon); or something of that sort. Similar to how many 4e GMs rule that extended rests can only be taken in a Rivendell-style "haven", or some similarly salubrious location.

Myrhdraak · Jan 27, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
I don't think you need bounded accuracy, you simply need to factor into your monster's damage output that they will hit less often, get hit more often, and die faster than monsters in a standard 4e encounter. With that in mind I think you will find that level-1 is probably going to work, or maybe level-2.

You are right in the case that you are writing your own adventures. But one interesting aspect of this exercise is that I can basically provide mechanisms and guidance as to be able to play 5th Edition adventures with my 4th Edition characters. Potentially mixing fast pace simple encounters with more 4th Edition style tactical combat encounters, without having to do a massive rework of the adventures. That at least I find a little interesting. Not proven yet, but interesting enought to be worthwile to explore more.

Myrhdraak · Jan 27, 2017

pemerton said:
I'm also not sure why you are suggesting that a player must spend a HS to recover encounter powers. In my experience, losing healing surges via environmental factors, in skill challenges, etc can already be fairly brutal on the non-defender/low CON PCs. But in those circumstances the players, at least in principle, have the capacity to spend resources to distribute the burden unequally (eg the fighter gives the mage an extra share of food and starves; or carries the mage and so loses two HS to exhaustion while the mage loses none; etc).

Good point. So far I have only looked at a Striker. It is a valid point to do the same analysis on a fighter, just to see the impact on a defender role. A striker with few HS would be more affected by a rule to have to use Healing Surges to recover Encounter Powers, but on the other hand are many of them not in the middle of combat in the same way. I will try to do some calculations on that use case as well.

The benefit of having to use "Stamina Surges" to recover encounter powers is of course interesting as a mechanism to not make "taking a short rest as soon as I can" a viable option.

Tony Vargas · Jan 27, 2017

pemerton said:
In my play experience, this is an extreme underestimate, especially at paragon tier and above.

I vaguely remember something about some designer maybe confiding that they were initially thinking 6+, but dailed it back to 3-5 in response to how folks actually played the game (and in conjunction with beefing up monsters, which also seemed to be an issue, & was maybe related).
That could have been an hallucination on my part, though.

I'm also not sure why you are suggesting that a player must spend a HS to recover encounter powers.

I like the idea, in concept, because it make the Surge a more varied/nuanced resource. I could imagine surges powering abilities, like 5e slots powering spells or the like.

Maybe I'm just confused about the starting point: to me, an "encounter" in 4e is the action that occurs between two rests.

An excellent if un-intuitive working definition.

And instead of reworking everything for bounded accuracy, you can sub in minions (eg one (C) encounter is a actually a 5th level standard with 6 5th level minions - say, a leader and 6 followers).

Good advice. However, 'bounding' accuracy could be as simple as doing some division. Level/5 instead of level/2 for PCs. Fewer stat bumps, halve enhancement bonuses, etc... Level/2 for monsters.

make the requirements for a short rest stricter (eg can't do it while heart's are racing in the dungeon).... Similar to how many 4e GMs rule that extended rests can only be taken in a Rivendell-style "haven", or some similarly salubrious location.

More good advice.

pemerton · Jan 28, 2017

Tony Vargas said:
'bounding' accuracy could be as simple as doing some division. Level/5 instead of level/2 for PCs. Fewer stat bumps, halve enhancement bonuses, etc... Level/2 for monsters.

Sure, but that looks like quite a bit of work (subracting 3/10 * level from every monsters defence and atttack bonuses). Maybe it's not? - I've been known to MM3 damage figures on the fly.

But then you also have to recalculate all the encounter-building guidelines.

I'm not saying it's bad; I just think there's easier starting points which look like they might solve the basic problem while having fewer unpredictable knock-on effects.

AbdulAlhazred · Jan 28, 2017

Tony Vargas said:
I vaguely remember something about some designer maybe confiding that they were initially thinking 6+, but dailed it back to 3-5 in response to how folks actually played the game (and in conjunction with beefing up monsters, which also seemed to be an issue, & was maybe related).
That could have been an hallucination on my part, though.

I don't know. I don't recall a specific place in the 4e DMG where they actually SAY that an adventuring day is 5 encounters, but its at least HEAVILY implied. [MENTION=6694190]Myrhdraak[/MENTION]'s math shows that characters are generally set up to handle about 4 encounters just by virtue of their HS, roughly. This doesn't account for the fact that PCs have a significant 'nova' capability by way of APs and daily powers. Nor does it take into account that most healing will be leader-enhanced, which can be a BIG enhancement (a level 1 cleric adds about 6-7 points PER SURGE to 2 surges per encounter, and possibly some added bonus points depending on what powers and etc he selects). Items and such can also provide a good bit of bonus points. With those factors added in its pretty likely PCs will manage 5 encounters without too many problems, unless they happen to be really tough or misfortune intervenes. I think [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is right too, at higher levels these numbers tend to change, rests become less vital and the more routine encounters become increasingly less significant, resource-wise.

I like the idea, in concept, because it make the Surge a more varied/nuanced resource. I could imagine surges powering abilities, like 5e slots powering spells or the like.

Its working reasonably well in HoML. Daily powers became 'Vitality' powers, requiring spending an HS, and encounter powers can be recharged too (though obviously a lot of them are overshadowed by the vitality powers, still, you don't get a lot of power choices in HoML so often these are still well worth it).

An excellent if un-intuitive working definition.

This is another of those 'read between the lines' definitions. Its TRUE, literally mechanically by RAW, and even stated at least once (in the section on durations in the combat chapter) but never stated AS SUCH, simply by rules implication. Encounter powers recharge, HS can be spent, your AP use ability, etc are all gated on a short rest. Even durations of powers with encounter duration continue (at least for 5 minutes) until the next short rest.

Good advice. However, 'bounding' accuracy could be as simple as doing some division. Level/5 instead of level/2 for PCs. Fewer stat bumps, halve enhancement bonuses, etc... Level/2 for monsters.

I don't think you get what 5e gives you, exactly, and it definitely creates some oddities in the game, though I'm sure its one of those things where most people won't care or even notice.

More good advice.

Yeah, this is something I favor too. You can go the other way as well, granting a rest after a mere pause in the action, if its dramatically worthwhile. You can also go sideways, granting more or less benefit from a rest. One traditional way to do this is injecting some resource like a 'healing fountain' or something into the adventure at some point.

Tony Vargas · Jan 28, 2017

pemerton said:
Sure, but that looks like quite a bit of work (subracting 3/10 * level from every monsters defence and atttack bonuses). Maybe it's not? - I've been known to MM3 damage figures on the fly.

I re-do just about every monster I use, anyway. :shrug:

But then you also have to recalculate all the encounter-building guidelines.

Why?

Tony Vargas · Jan 28, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
I don't know. I don't recall a specific place in the 4e DMG where they actually SAY that an adventuring day is 5 encounters, but its at least HEAVILY implied.

Like I said, it was a rumor, even if I'm remembering it right.

The first 4e game I was in, though, we did go 8 or 9 encounters in one day - towards the end of KotSf, in fact.

I don't think you get what 5e gives you, exactly

Rather the point, though. If you wanted exactly what 5e gives you, well y'know.

, and it definitely creates some oddities in the game, though I'm sure its one of those things where most people won't care or even notice.

You mean like from missing a source of scaling? Or something else?

Yeah, this is something I favor too. You can go the other way as well, granting a rest after a mere pause in the action, if its dramatically worthwhile. You can also go sideways, granting more or less benefit from a rest.

Yep. What sold me on it was running seafaring. It felt natural to restrict long rest to friendly ports & islands.

One traditional way to do this is injecting some resource like a 'healing fountain' or something into the adventure at some point.

Done that a time or few, sure.

AbdulAlhazred · Jan 28, 2017

Tony Vargas said:
Like I said, it was a rumor, even if I'm remembering it right.

Well, you are definitely correct that its never stated outright as a rule or explicit guideline. Actually I think it is more fair to say that an adventuring day is 5 AT-LEVEL encounters worth of action, so it may be closer to 4 mechanical encounters in the average case, since most encounters are a bit over your level. One of those is likely to be an SC (maybe more even) too. I'd also note that WotC definitely set up 10 encounters/level as the leveling rate, and then 1-2 of them are replaced with quest XP, so a LEVEL is going to be ROUGHLY 8-10 encounters. That seems to make the logic of a 4-5 encounter day make sense, as it roughly breaks down a level into 2 'sections', each bounded by a long rest. It all just seems to fit, and actually I recall when someone asked this question a while back I just assumed, since it so naturally followed from the adventure building/XP guidelines that it was actually spelled out.

You mean like from missing a source of scaling? Or something else?

Well, I just mean there's likely some quirks that will arise? I mean its just pretty basic game math? I haven't done it, though I DID adjust the math in HoML. Originally it was a half-level bonus like 4e, but it turned out to be quite hard to make that work, the damage expressions became pretty super-sized by 20th level (which is all that HoML has, 20 levels). Cutting it back to +1.5/4 levels fixed that, though it does require having a level bonus table, which I don't love.