D&D 5E UA and depth of complexity

Guest 6801328 · Jan 28, 2017

CapnZapp said:
The system doesn't change. What is increasingly obvious, however, is that we need an alternative Monster Manual for power users.

(And for the love of Vecna, if your trigger response is "I don't have any problem with the MM" you don't have to purchase this product)

A Lethal Monster Manual I would like to see. Far more than "more rules".

Cap'n Kobold · Jan 28, 2017

CapnZapp said:
The problem for me and my players is that the problem space just isn't large enough.

Sure there are more dials we haven't turned yet. Problem is, in most cases we've already concluded they're not competitive.

Now, when you say 'competitive', what do you actually mean?
What are they competing against and where have you set the bar that you define what is competitive, and what isn't by?

Barbarian: our first Barbarian was a Totem barb. I haven't seen any other subclass that motivates us to return to that class.
Bard: very squishy. The Inspiration die is almost game-breakingly good, but it's no fun to bring along a "super die" the others have to constantly protect.
Cleric: we've used Light and Tempest to good effect. Problem is, now we're running out of first-tier results. Also, very few cleric-specific feats and no good multiclassing makes Cleric a done deal, a problem solved.
Fighter: There are really only two options: Battlemaster with Precision maneuvers, and Eldritch Knight with Shields. I'm sure a case can be made for a few more builds, but then again I consider Fighter one of the most successful classes of all of 5E. The multiclassing potential is wonderful; many feats are tailor-made for fighters.
Valor Bards and Blade Warlocks: the problem is that compared to real martials, you're simply way too squishy. Besides, you will never use your weapons, since your spells will outcompete weapon usage every time.

...and so on, you get my point.

Adding more subclasses might be good for players looking for a specific archetype, but almost none of them are interesting in the least from a charbuild perspective.

As in building on top of an existing character? (Which subclasses will generally be less useful for). Or building new characters? (Which they work pretty well for.)

That's why I started this thread. To highlight the fact that adding MORE options (like UA is currently doing) does nothing for existing characters.

Could lead to more problems though. From what I can tell, you give the impression that you and the rest of your party is running rings around your DM due to a hefty system mastery disparity. More options for characters is only going to have the potential for exacerbating the situation to an even worse extent.

So, yes, 5E seems simple on the verge of going played-out in its third year already, and that's way too soon IMO. But adding breadth alone won't cut it. Some of us crave more depth

If your group feels that they've played-out 5e, try something different: a campaign with a very different style, randomly assigned pregenerated characters, a weird setting, a different DM. Go nuts. After the break, you may feel more enthusiastic again.

Corpsetaker · Jan 28, 2017

Cap'n Kobold said:
Could lead to more problems though. From what I can tell, you give the impression that you and the rest of your party is running rings around your DM due to a hefty system mastery disparity. More options for characters is only going to have the potential for exacerbating the situation to an even worse extent.

This is just more of that white room talk. Here is the thing that you don't seem to mention. Optional rules don't come into your games unless you bring them. It's called taking control of the game as a DM and lay down the fact about what is in your game and what isn't. I think it's time people broke away from the assumption that ABC is in games by default and actually start asking what is in the game before the game even starts.

Some people like to walk into an ice cream shop and have 5 flavours to choose from. Some people like to 15 flavours to choose from. Which option do you think covers the situation the best? The answer is 15 flavours because the 5 flavour people will still have their 5 flavours and so will the 15.

Sacrosanct · Jan 28, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
Some people like to walk into an ice cream shop and have 5 flavours to choose from. Some people like to 15 flavours to choose from. Which option do you think covers the situation the best? The answer is 15 flavours because the 5 flavour people will still have their 5 flavours and so will the 15.

Did you totally ignore my reply to you earlier on this? Coming up with 10 extra flavors takes a lot of time and money to make them decent, and may not be worth it if only 10% of your customers want anything beyond the 5. And that's even ignoring the fact that the business scope is to "keep it simple", which 5e clearly is, or ignoring that in your analogy, they said "here are our 5 flavors most everyone wants and is satisfied with, and here are the ingredients for you to make different flavors if you are one of those few who want something different. In fact, we'll even give your flavor shelf space for everyone else to try if they want, and you can even keep half of the profit!."

Corpsetaker · Jan 28, 2017

pming said:
Hiya!

Then make it yourself for those that want it and leave the game crunch-light for those who don't.

Bye-ya!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Sorry but that is a cop out answer. I'm not a game designer and I don't have a lot of time to create my own stuff. How about give an actual legitimate reason why you can't stick with the options you want and let me have more options that I can choose from. So because you don't like a certain flavour that means I can't have it?

Corpsetaker · Jan 28, 2017

Sacrosanct said:
Did you totally ignore my reply to you earlier on this? Coming up with 10 extra flavors takes a lot of time and money to make them decent, and may not be worth it if only 10% of your customers want anything beyond the 5. And that's even ignoring the fact that the business scope is to "keep it simple", which 5e clearly is, or ignoring that in your analogy, they said "here are our 5 flavors most everyone wants and is satisfied with, and here are the ingredients for you to make different flavors if you are one of those few who want something different. In fact, we'll even give your flavor shelf space for everyone else to try if they want, and you can even keep half of the profit!."

To be honest I ignore most of your comments because it's really just a waste of time with you.

Sacrosanct · Jan 28, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
To be honest I ignore most of your comments because it's really just a waste of time with you.

Ok, setting aside the massive irony for a moment....

I have twice now directly addressed exactly why you won't see what you are wanting to see. So maybe you just might want to actually read them and educate yourself on how a business works. For the record, my day job is in project management, so I'm not exactly talking out of my bum here on this topic.

Or you can refuse and choose to remain ignorant on the topic. Your choice, but don't expect anyone to be swayed to your argument if you do so.

Sorry but that is a cop out answer. I'm not a game designer and I don't have a lot of time to create my own stuff. How about give an actual legitimate reason why you can't stick with the options you want and let me have more options that I can choose from. So because you don't like a certain flavour that means I can't have it?

I've given you a legitimate answer that happens in real life twice now.

Edit* Oh, and BTW, while my day job is project management, I'm also a game designer on top of that as my hobby (even winning awards). I am 100% certain that every other game designer will back me up when I say that game design takes a lot of effort and time and money to make something worth it's while.

Corpsetaker · Jan 28, 2017

Tony Vargas said:
Conversely, if what you want is rules-lite D&D, and WotC puts out a book stuffed with heavy rules, all you have to do is not buy it.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know people who just stick with the basic rules set and they don't complain about there being a PHB and DMG.

Cap'n Kobold · Jan 28, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
This is just more of that white room talk.

I'm fairly sure that CapnZapp's group is using Feats and a couple of other optional systems. Because he has told us. Its hardly a 'white room', when we have been given specific information on the situation.

Here is the thing that you don't seem to mention. Optional rules don't come into your games unless you bring them. It's called taking control of the game as a DM and lay down the fact about what is in your game and what isn't. I think it's time people broke away from the assumption that ABC is in games by default and actually start asking what is in the game before the game even starts.

Of course I didn't mention it. I'm trying to give practical advice for an ongoing game and telling someone "Well you should have thought of that before you started." isn't very constructive I feel.

Some people like to walk into an ice cream shop and have 5 flavours to choose from. Some people like to 15 flavours to choose from. Which option do you think covers the situation the best? The answer is 15 flavours because the 5 flavour people will still have their 5 flavours and so will the 15.

However here we have a situation where the DM's lack of ability to handle the current optional rules in the hands of heavy optimisers is causing the issue. Giving the optimisers more scope to min-max their power even further is not going to relieve that situation I believe.

AaronOfBarbaria · Jan 28, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
Sorry but that is a cop out answer. I'm not a game designer... So because you don't like a certain flavour that means I can't have it?

Sometimes, not all the times of course, people asking for something to be done for them because they aren't a game designer, sounds a lot like the following, to use the ice cream analogy:

Customer A: "I want Neapolitan ice cream. Why does this shop refuse to sell it to me?"
Customer B: "Um... they've got vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry, why not just put those together in a bowl?
Customer A: "I'm not an ice cream maker, I don't have time for that. Why won't you let me get the flavor I like and just not eat it if you don't like it?"