Questions about a proposed template

We play 3.5, and characters are created using the Point Buy method from the DMG.

A while back a player wanted an alternative method. He reasoned that, per the rules, PCs are exceptional individuals. Per the DMG, there is something called an Elite Array of ability scores for exceptional individuals.

This array amounts to stat modifiers of +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2.

He wanted to use that as the base, then apply the 32 point buy.

There was a discussion of allowing this as a special package, with an appropriate ECL adjustment.

The character didn't stay and the player left with him before the whole mess played out, which is probably a good thing. Still, what ECL adjustment would you apply?

First though remember that it makes a difference which order you apply these. If you apply the bonuses to the base 8s of the 32 point buy you get a different result than if you buy then bonus.

Point buy gives an absolute point cost based not on how much you're adding, but on what the final number is.

Let's run some numbers.

Lets start with STR 12 (+4). CON 12 (+4), INT 10 (+2), Dex 10 (+2), WIS 8 (+0) and CHA 6 (-2)

CHA 14 costs 6 points, because a 14 costs 6 no matter where you start from.
STR 18 costs 16 points, because that's what an 18 costs, no matter where you start from.

So the combined deal isn't going to help you much. You can ge a couple of "free" 12s out of it by placing the +4 spots in two "dump stats", but that's about the best you're going to do. That turns your 32 point buy into an effective 40 point, and can't produce anything superhuman (There is no point cost for any ability over 18. You can't buy them that high).

Going in the other direction, buying numbers then adding bonuses...

STR 20 (16 bought for 10, +4)
CON 20 (16 bought for 10, +4)
DEX 14 (12 bought for 4, +2)
INT 14 (12 bought for 4, +2)
WIS 10 (10 bought for 2, +2)
CHA 8 (10 bought for 2, -2 )

There's no way to price this, by the book, but if we extrapolate the point buy table you can get this: From a base score of 8 you pay 1 for 1 for scores of up to 14. 2 for 1 for scores 15 and 16. 3 for 1 for scores 17 and 18. Extending this pattern it would be 4 for 1 for 19 and 20.

So the 20s would be worth 24 purchase points each, the 14s worth 6 points each, the 10 would be 2 points and the 8 would be free. Sp 24+24+6+6+2 = 62 points, almost double the base purchase point value.

So looking at the two versions, what would you rate the ECL to be for the first one, which is essentially 2 scores of +4 each?

What estimate would you place on the second package, where the full +4, +4, +2, +2, -2 range count for full value. What ECL would you apply to that package?

(PS: The Elite Array shows up in two places: One for creating above average NPCs; The top sergeant, the war leader. The other place is in a section for DMs to create new races who live in very harsh environments. I would argue that this isn't a "template", it's a new race. A "Human" based character built with this is no longer "human", and loses the bonus Feats and Skills humans get. YMMV)

Thoughts?

The Elite array corresponds to a PC, built with 32 pt buy. It isn't something on top of 32 pt buy, but an approximation of it. Applying the elite array to something is like saying its as much superior to a normal member of its race as the PC's are to their race. In effect, the Elite array has already been applied to PCs. Applying the elite array, and then applying 32 pt buy is applying it twice.

I would be hard pressed not to bodily throw the idiot from the room. I've heard of some stupidity before, but this takes the cake.

Anyway, I would guess this to be roughly +2 LA (compare with other abusable templates like half-celestial), with the caveat that I do not believe there is any possible balance that result from using LA PC races other than +0. They aren't balanced at either low level (when the reduced HD isn't worth the increased ability scores) or at high level (when the multiplicative advantages of increased ability scores more than make up for the missing HD). It's a badly thought out system.

Technically the Elite Array is a 25 point buy (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 adds up as 8+6+5+4+2 on the point buy chart), but your point is well taken, and I agree that this is a bad idea.

Originally we had a player who was "tired of having my characters die". We had told him the available source books for character creation were the PHB, MM and DMG. We also specified 32 point buy (the highest rated level offered).

Since the Elite Array was in the DMG he tried this, well I guess the polite term would be "hybrid" of an arrangement. He didn't ask the DM, nor did he tell anyone until the DM asked what was with the crazy numbers. Then he got a bit belligerent, "You said the DMG, I guess you were lying!". Not a way to make friends and influence people.

A vote was taken and it was allowed, as a +1 ECL package. (Mostly so we could move along to gaming.) There were a few other problems in the weeks that followed, and then he disappeared. We recently heard from him and he'd like to rejoin the game. He still wants this package as +1. I told him it probably wasn't going to fly, but he's still pressing. Technically there will be a vote when the time comes. I already know the outcome.

So, while this tale has a bit of a painful backstory, I'm still interested in how others feel about the package. No special attacks or abilities, just a big stat bump. I don't think there are any other templates/races that do that.

Just ... just no. Don't.

It's hard to come up with an idea on what the level adjustment would be for a template like that. Is it +4 str or +4 int? What's the lore behind it? Any other powers? I feel like the powers are what drive Level Adjustment a lot more than just racial stat bonuses.

For just adding those stats as you want to, I'd want to say it's at least a +4 or +5 but it doesn't matter because I would never allow something like that at my table.

Player: Hey I want to boost my primary stats by +4/+4/ and +2 for a measly -2 to my dump stat.
Me: Oh? May I see that, please? Oh, look it fell into the paper shredder. Clumsy me. Now make a real character using the generation rules I already stated.

Elite array is something for NPCs or if you have to make a character really quickly. Trying to argue that a 32 point buy should include additional bonuses to your stats because PCs are elite is just insane.

I had a feeling as soon as I opened this post that it was going to be a Problem Child thread. [MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] did not disappoint.

Actually, this isn't Problem Child. He'd never be this subtle.

No, when I last heard of Problem child he was telling his other/new group that he left because we couldn't handle his Rp skills. ( Reminder: He has no RP skills and he got voted out.)

No, this is someone else, and we have no intention of allowing this bag of Bandini into the game.

The player's okay, though a bit more power-game than we really like, but this package is a no-go.

His proposed character is a Rogue, using a class alternative from UA that gives fighter feats in exchange for the Sneak Attack. He wanted Disruptive Attack from either PHB II or Complete Adventurer (I can't recall which right off hand ) and Spell Sense feat (Complete Adventurer. Since Disruptive Attack trades off Sneak Attack to mess with the target's AC for a round, and since his character has no Sneak Attack to trade off, that option is probably going to get rejected when the time comes. Spell Sens swaps out for Trap Sense, giving the character better AC v spells that require a To Hit. That reeks of trying to make a character who is immune to most spells: Evasion to stop AOE and Spell Sense to raise his Touch AC so spell casters can't hit with ray-type spells.

That last part isn't as bad as Problem Child kept trying, but it's probably going to fail at the gate as well.

If he'd gotten that *and8 his stat package the character would be very hard to challenge without twisting the focus of most combats to revolve around stopping him. None of our DMs are willing to do that.

I expect he'll show up, be disappointed that we're saying no to so much of the cheese he wants, and drop out again after a week or three.