D&D 5E Changing the sleep spell? (and hypnotic pattern too)

Quickleaf · Feb 22, 2017

1. If I wanted to make sleep based on maximum hit points (instead of current hit points), should the base 5d8 hit points be increased? If so, by how much?

2. If I wanted to discourage using sleep for "murder them in their sleep" tactics, how could I do that in a way that's justifiable given the spell? My inspiration here is how creatures have advantage to save vs. charm person's if they're hostile to the caster, but I'm uncertain how to translate that to hit points. Maybe have creatures automatically wake up if a creature with hostile intent moves within 5 feet of them or draws a weapon next to them (you see my difficulty)?

3. If I wanted to let a caster make sleep last longer than 1 minute, should that be incorporated as an option for casting at higher levels? If so, what is an appropriate duration-scaling mechanic?

Longer explanation:

The sleep spell really doesn't work for me for two reasons and I've had trouble getting my house-ruling of it right. Basically, I'd like sleep to feel more fantastical/mystical/magical and less "D&D murder-hobo ridiculous" (which isn't to say there aren't times when D&D's ridiculous is endearing, and there are indeed times when murdering monsters is great fun, but this just isn't one of those).

Btw, once I figure out a house rule that works, I also plan on making hypnotic pattern based on a similar mechanic, because how it was redesigned for 5e also leads to defenseless pinata syndrome.

Sleep
1st-Level Enchantment

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a cricket)
Duration: 1 minute

This spell sends creatures into a magical slumber. Roll 5d8; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can affect. Creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures).

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake. Subtract each creatures’ hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature’s hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total for that creature to be affected.

Undead and creatures immune to being charmed aren’t affected by this spell.

At higher levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d8 for each slot level above 1st.

Problem #1 – Current HP: The way it's written sleep is best used either against super-weak monsters (e.g. kobolds) or even better as an "encounter ender" once a monster has been badly wounded (i.e. so others in your party can slit its throat or bind it). Using sleep as an "encounter ender" takes me totally out of the game because it feels at odds with how sleep magic is used in fantasy literature / myth, which is typically to avoid something dangerous or as a form of long-lasting curse. You don't see "bludgeon him so we can put him to sleep" in fantasy literature / myth; it's a jarring D&D 5e-ism. Also, murdering incapacitated monsters can be fun as a rare reward for creative play, but not so much as a consistent spell option.

Problem #2 – Lowest HP Creature First: Also, given how sleep is written, if it's cast around any commoners or farm animals, it will probably put them to sleep rather than intended targets. Thus, a savvy party expecting to encounter sleep magic could carry around a basket full of 1 hit point chickens or mice (or whatever) and mostly negate sleep magic used against them. Which is totally ridiculous... The greatest challenge to a mighty sorceress putting a peasant family to sleep would be dealing with the chickens and goats.

EDIT: I'll post my iterative revisions to sleep here as I work on them...

Here's my first try, borrowing from flesh to stone and charm person...

[SECTION]
Sleep (Quickleaf's "fairytale" rewrite)

Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 100 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a cricket)
Duration: 1 minute, special

This spell sends creatures into a magical slumber. All creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range must make a Wisdom saving throw. If you and your companions are fighting a creature in the spell's area of effect, it has advantage on its save. A creature failing its saving throw is overcome by drowsiness, suffering disadvantage on any initiative checks it makes, and having to fight to keep its eyes open.

A creature made drowsy by this spell must make another Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. If it successfully saves against this spell three times, the spell ends. If it fails saves three times, it falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake. The successes and failures don’t need to be consecutive; keep track of both until the target collects three of a kind.

When the spell ends, the creature does not necessarily realize you attempted to put it to sleep magically.

At higher levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, for each spell slot above 1st level you may either increase the area of effect by 10 feet (i.e. all creatures within 30 feet of a point you choose for a 2nd level slot) or increase the duration. With a 2nd level slot, the duration increases to 10 minutes. With a 3rd level slot, the duration increases to 1 hour. With a 4th level slot, the duration increases to 8 hours. With a 5th level slot, the duration increases to 1 day.
With a 6th level or higher spell slot, the spell no longer ends on a creature if it takes damage or someone uses an action to shake or slap the creature awake; instead, remove curse awakens the sleeping creature. With a 6th level slot, the duration increases to 1 week. With a 7th level slot, the duration increases to 1 month. With an 8th level slot, the duration increases to one season. With a 9th level slot, the duration changes to until a trigger you define occurs.
[/SECTION]

Ketser · Feb 22, 2017

I don't see problems with hypnotic pattern, it prevents affected creatures from taking moving, taking actions or reactions, but isn't full unconsciousness, so no advantage on attacks or auto crits. Also any damage taken ends the spell for affected creature. So its an highly effective crowd control/stun, but doesn't leave the targets entirely defenceless.

Nagol · Feb 22, 2017

I am uncertain if the spell chassis can be saved and still have the spell do what you want it to do.

I'd suggest rewriting the spell into two (or more) versions: one for the long-lasting curse and a short-sneak version.

For the second, I'd look to Hold Person's chassis and adjust it slightly. If the initial saving throw fails, the victim will stay asleep until it wakes normally, is attacked, is approached within 5', or loud noises (such as combat or alarms) are present. Subsequent saving throws are made at advantage. Being attacked automatically breaks the spell and the attacker does not get advantage on the attack.

transtemporal · Feb 24, 2017

1. I'm not sure I'd change it to maximum hp, while keeping its current spell level. That would make it a long-range low-level boss killer.
2. Sleep is sleep. You could change the effect so its like Hypnotic Pattern instead, but then I'd also change the name.
3. I don't think crowd-control spells are intended to have extended duration as an option. Confusion, Hold Person, Hold Monster, Sleep, Hypnotic Pattern, Power Word Stun - none of those spells have a higher level option that extends duration.

I think Sleep is somewhat unsatisfactory overall. Its designed like a aoe attack spell with a particularly deadly effect and its too similar to Color Spray for my liking. Personally, I'd make it a melee spell attack, knocking unconscious 6d8hp.

Shiroiken · Feb 24, 2017

If you want to fix Sleep, change it to affect a number of HD, regardless of HP. I would suggest something like 2d4 HD, +1d4 per level above 1st. You can grant a save at the end of the creature's turn, and have the sleep last for an hour if they fail more than 3/5/10 times. Remember that only 1 character will get the Advantage and Critical Hit against the unconscious foe (who will wake up after attacked).

Leatherhead · Feb 24, 2017

Here are a few spitballs for you:
Make Sleep an inherently subtle spell that can stack exhaustion levels instead: After 6 rounds, the target falls asleep instead of dying. Once the target is asleep this way, they can stay asleep for days/spell level, with level 9 lasting until some stipulation happens or Remove Curse is cast. This also means the person casting it can be found out before the spell "finishes" making stealthy plays of the essence.
Make Sleep work like a form of suspended animation: The target can't suffer damage or age as a result of the spell. In theory the PC's could still put the target into a position that is inherently lethal, but unless they stay around for the days it would take to make sure they are dead, there are no promises.

Quickleaf · Feb 24, 2017

Ketser said:
I don't see problems with hypnotic pattern, it prevents affected creatures from taking moving, taking actions or reactions, but isn't full unconsciousness, so no advantage on attacks or auto crits. Also any damage taken ends the spell for affected creature. So its an highly effective crowd control/stun, but doesn't leave the targets entirely defenceless.

You're right. I thought incapacitated was more like unconsciousness, but it's actually more like being momentarily dazed. Thanks for correcting me.

Nagol said:
I am uncertain if the spell chassis can be saved and still have the spell do what you want it to do.

I'd suggest rewriting the spell into two (or more) versions: one for the long-lasting curse and a short-sneak version.

For the second, I'd look to Hold Person's chassis and adjust it slightly. If the initial saving throw fails, the victim will stay asleep until it wakes normally, is attacked, is approached within 5', or loud noises (such as combat or alarms) are present. Subsequent saving throws are made at advantage. Being attacked automatically breaks the spell and the attacker does not get advantage on the attack.

Yeah, the more I look at it, I just don't understand the lack of a save / hit point mechanic for sleep (and color spray). It's such a weird exception to the rules.

I think I should be able to include an at higher levels clause so that one sleep spell can account for short-sneak version and long-lasting curse version.

transtemporal said:
1. I'm not sure I'd change it to maximum hp, while keeping its current spell level. That would make it a long-range low-level boss killer.
2. Sleep is sleep. You could change the effect so its like Hypnotic Pattern instead, but then I'd also change the name.
3. I don't think crowd-control spells are intended to have extended duration as an option. Confusion, Hold Person, Hold Monster, Sleep, Hypnotic Pattern, Power Word Stun - none of those spells have a higher level option that extends duration.

I think the trick with #1 is that to make sleep work how I envision, while keeping it a 1st-level spell (for starters), is going to require some conditional limits to how it can be used.

I think Sleep is somewhat unsatisfactory overall. Its designed like a aoe attack spell with a particularly deadly effect and its too similar to Color Spray for my liking. Personally, I'd make it a melee spell attack, knocking unconscious 6d8hp.

Yeah, I really don't understand the design logic behind no saves / the hit point mechanic for sleep and color spray. What's the thinking there? Why are those two spells such an exception?

Shiroiken said:
If you want to fix Sleep, change it to affect a number of HD, regardless of HP. I would suggest something like 2d4 HD, +1d4 per level above 1st. You can grant a save at the end of the creature's turn, and have the sleep last for an hour if they fail more than 3/5/10 times.

I guess my question is whether there's any good reason to keep ANY kind of "number of HP or HD affected" rule for sleep (or color spray)?

Remember that only 1 character will get the Advantage and Critical Hit against the unconscious foe (who will wake up after attacked).

I'm not too concerned about sleep being overpowered or anything (and let's be honest: in that scenario the Rogue is likely going to be the one doing the throat-slitting to take advantage of Advantage/Crittting with sneak attack).

My issue is thematic. If I haven't communicated that clearly, let me use this specific example...

From an older thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473592-Sleep-spell-overpowered/page2

Eltab said:
During an AL module, a Minotaur burst in the room where my group was. I hit it with an Alpha Strike and then the Wizard cast _Sleep_. Down it went for a nap. I walked out of the room and found the Minotaur's allies in the hallway threatening the owner of the building. I stepped aside so they could see behind me, hooked my thumb over my shoulder, and said, "He scared me. You don't scare me." The allies surrendered without further ado. (I had a negative Intimidate modifier at the time, but didn't have to roll a die.)

The intimidation part was great role-playing. The part that's jarring for me is in red.

Leatherhead said:
Here are a few spitballs for you:
Make Sleep an inherently subtle spell that can stack exhaustion levels instead: After 6 rounds, the target falls asleep instead of dying. Once the target is asleep this way, they can stay asleep for days/spell level, with level 9 lasting until some stipulation happens or Remove Curse is cast. This also means the person casting it can be found out before the spell "finishes" making stealthy plays of the essence.
Make Sleep work like a form of suspended animation: The target can't suffer damage or age as a result of the spell. In theory the PC's could still put the target into a position that is inherently lethal, but unless they stay around for the days it would take to make sure they are dead, there are no promises.

While I think exhaustion is probably the wrong mechanic (due to all the negative modifiers associated with it making it a HUGE penalty), I like how you're thinking. Some kind of delayed onset time could be interesting for supporting sneaky-sleep; an example already in the game is flesh to stone which goes restrained > potentially petrified if failing 3 saves.

Quickleaf · Feb 24, 2017

Here's my first try...

[SECTION]
Sleep (Quickleaf's "fairytale" rewrite)

Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 100 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a cricket)
Duration: 1 minute, special

This spell sends creatures into a magical slumber. All creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range must make a Wisdom saving throw. If you and your companions are fighting a creature in the spell's area of effect, it has advantage on its save. A creature failing its saving throw is overcome by drowsiness, suffering disadvantage on any initiative checks it makes, and having to fight to keep its eyes open.

A creature made drowsy by this spell must make another Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. If it successfully saves against this spell three times, the spell ends. If it fails saves three times, it falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake. The successes and failures don’t need to be consecutive; keep track of both until the target collects three of a kind.

When the spell ends, the creature does not necessarily realize you attempted to put it to sleep magically.

At higher levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, for each spell slot above 1st level you may either increase the area of effect by 10 feet (i.e. all creatures within 30 feet of a point you choose for a 2nd level slot) or increase the duration. With a 2nd level slot, the duration increases to 10 minutes. With a 3rd level slot, the duration increases to 1 hour. With a 4th level slot, the duration increases to 8 hours. With a 5th level slot, the duration increases to 1 day.
With a 6th level or higher spell slot, the spell no longer ends on a creature if it takes damage or someone uses an action to shake or slap the creature awake; instead, remove curse awakens the sleeping creature. With a 6th level slot, the duration increases to 1 week. With a 7th level slot, the duration increases to 1 month. With an 8th level slot, the duration increases to one season. With a 9th level slot, the duration changes to until a trigger you define occurs.
[/SECTION]

TheCosmicKid · Feb 24, 2017

What if you flipped it? Rather than working best on creatures at low hit points, the spell only worked on creatures at full hit points? Creatures that are currently in pain will not succumb to the subtle drowsiness of the magic. Sort of like how creatures in combat save at advantage against charm person.

EDIT: I see you're thinking along the lines of charm person already.

TheCosmicKid · Feb 24, 2017

Quickleaf said:
Yeah, the more I look at it, I just don't understand the lack of a save / hit point mechanic for sleep (and color spray). It's such a weird exception to the rules.

In the playtest a lot more things were going to work that way, but they scaled it back to these spells primarily because they've always worked that way. From a gamist standpoint, at least, it makes a lot of sense. It prevents "save or suck" spells from dominating a combat irrespective of a creature's strength, lets a battle evolve into different phases and opportunities as creatures get weaker, and ties all offensive abilities both damaging and debuffing to a unified resistance system. That's not to say I disagree with your thematic grievances with sleep, but I do like this mechanic in general.