A Content Extraction Project... Rescuing the Forums

Garthanos · Feb 26, 2017

Wondering if anyone had investigated this..

http://secretsofthearchmages.net/

The things i have rescued recently were using the Way Back Machine

Morrus · Feb 26, 2017

We reduced vast amounts of the WotC forums when they closed and posted them here on EN World:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?538-WotC-Emergency-Evacuation-Lifeboat

Garthanos · Feb 26, 2017

Morrus said:
We reduced vast amounts of the WotC forums when they closed and posted them here on EN World:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?538-WotC-Emergency-Evacuation-Lifeboat

Thank You that is great!!!! i will be linking to that.

There was a thread i was looking for that involved some forward looking thoughts about roles
that delved into how they were part of teamwork techniques in the real world and in military as well
featuring lots of contribution by Wrecan...

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 27, 2017

Garthanos said:
Thank You that is great!!!! i will be linking to that.

There was a thread i was looking for that involved some forward looking thoughts about roles
that delved into how they were part of teamwork techniques in the real world and in military as well
featuring lots of contribution by Wrecan...

Well, I know I've posted here, and no doubt on WotC forums back in the day, many times on the 'Clausewitzian Nature' of roles and how they are really an element of military science that reflects an underlying reality, not just an artificial construct of 4e. I don't recall specifically discussing this with Wrecan but its unlikely he didn't weigh in on at least one or two of those threads.

Garthanos · Feb 27, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
Well, I know I've posted here, and no doubt on WotC forums back in the day, many times on the 'Clausewitzian Nature' of roles and how they are really an element of military science that reflects an underlying reality, not just an artificial construct of 4e. I don't recall specifically discussing this with Wrecan but its unlikely he didn't weigh in on at least one or two of those threads.

I wanted roles to extend to outside of battle team activities so things like

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 27, 2017

Right, its just HARD to sort out how to make that function in game. Its particularly difficult to sort out how to give characters specific roles. If they are attached to something like class then all of a sudden you have a HUGE number of possible niches to fill with classes. It would take 500 classes to fill your 'grid' given the list above for instance, which is clearly not feasible.

If you divorce role from class, then IMHO you obviate most of what role is about. Role, to me, is a way for a game designer to telegraph to his audience what a class DOES, and to help him and anyone else who extends that class to understand what should go into it. This is clear with 4e classes, you wouldn't add a feature to a 4e controller that causes increased damage, or that heals your allies (certainly not as a main thing, you might have a very minor effect that supports the idea of a secondary role). Unless you can make similar statements about any additional proposed roles (regardless of if they relate to combat or something else) then you don't really have a basis for building said role upon (you won't be able to say 'this class should have this feature because it fosters role X').

So, I've seen these lists of proposed roles before, but never really a compelling exposition of what one of them IS in mechanical/narrative terms.

Garthanos · Feb 27, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
Right, its just HARD to sort out how to make that function in game. Its particularly difficult to sort out how to give characters specific roles. If they are attached to something like class then all of a sudden you have a HUGE number of possible niches to fill with classes. It would take 500 classes to fill your 'grid' given the list above for instance, which is clearly not feasible.

Not exactly the intent LOL that is a somewhat more complex version

I think that is there are logical pairings and I was thinking each person has a preferred primary and secondary.

AbdulAlhazred said:
If you divorce role from class, then IMHO you obviate most of what role is about. Role, to me, is a way for a game designer to telegraph to his audience what a class DOES.

It can be attached to powers and abilities (or even as modifiers of your skills) not just classes in fact it very often really already is ...

Garthanos · Feb 27, 2017

I want to elaborate further but yes I kind of think roles can be flexible and is a direction for development... I still want them explicit so players can figure out what their characters are capable of and to know which abilities to look at when they need "role function"

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 27, 2017

Garthanos said:
Not exactly the intent LOL that is a somewhat more complex version I think that is there are logical pairings and I was thinking each person has a preferred primary and secondary.

Well, I agree with you that a 'grid' was never, and should not be, the goal of 4e. However, you'd still want to cover a fair amount of this conceptual space.

It can be attached to powers and abilities (or even as modifiers of your skills) not just classes in fact it very often really already is ...

Sure, but what I think this points out is that perhaps this isn't really 'role' per-se. Not in the same sense that the combat roles are. I mean if 'Specialist' really effectively just means "you have a very focused set of skills that you are really good at" is that a role or is it just a character build style that pretty much anyone can accomplish with most characters? I mean, I don't see a specific character element you would utilize to produce that. Perhaps you could construct a VERY general feat that said something like "pick an area of specialization and whenever you're skill checks fall into this area, gain a +5 skill bonus to any check you make" (this would actually just be a mechanical enhancement of the suggested +2 bonus you can get due to a related background element). Not bad, it would convey some element of being focused in a particular area, but at the same time its not very defining. Now, you could probably make more specific variations of this for different specializations, that say added a Practice into the mix or something like that. So, its not a terrible idea by ANY means.

Now, I'm not sure what you could do with the other roles in your list. Some of them do suggest one or another thing, like 'Finisher' might be good at Aid Another, narratively providing that final 'cherry on top' bit that makes something click. I think in that case it might apply to basically any check, Finishing isn't really domain specific.

Shaper might be able to remove failures in an SC, or grant advantages. Plant might be able to substitute a knowledge skill for some other skill, etc.

So, your list could be productive.

Garthanos · Feb 27, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
Well, I agree with you that a 'grid' was never, and should not be, the goal of 4e. However, you'd still want to cover a fair amount of this conceptual space.

Sure, but what I think this points out is that perhaps this isn't really 'role' per-se. Not in the same sense that the combat roles are. I mean if 'Specialist' really effectively just means "you have a very focused set of skills that you are really good at" is that a role or is it just a character build style that pretty much anyone can accomplish with most characters? I mean, I don't see a specific character element you would utilize to produce that. Perhaps you could construct a VERY general feat that said something like "pick an area of specialization and whenever you're skill checks fall into this area, gain a +5 skill bonus to any check you make" (this would actually just be a mechanical enhancement of the suggested +2 bonus you can get due to a related background element). Not bad, it would convey some element of being focused in a particular area, but at the same time its not very defining. Now, you could probably make more specific variations of this for different specializations, that say added a Practice into the mix or something like that. So, its not a terrible idea by ANY means.

Now, I'm not sure what you could do with the other roles in your list. Some of them do suggest one or another thing, like 'Finisher' might be good at Aid Another, narratively providing that final 'cherry on top' bit that makes something click. I think in that case it might apply to basically any check, Finishing isn't really domain specific.

Shaper might be able to remove failures in an SC, or grant advantages. Plant might be able to substitute a knowledge skill for some other skill, etc.

So, your list could be productive.