D&D 4E Rewards in 4e

OK, so, we were taking up [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] Blood Demand thread with the topic of rewards in 4e and the dearth of mechanisms for them. My conclusion was that treasure doesn't work as a reward in 4e (Well, it was [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s as well to be fair, maybe everyone's). Is there something that DOES work, or how would such a thing be appended to the game? Would it require an actual reworking of 4e itself?

This was my last post on the other thread, so maybe that is a starting point.

I think we agree on that, treasure doesn't really work as a reward in 4e. It really can't since the DM is obliged to give it out on a fixed schedule. In effect its simply an adjunct of XP, for each XP you get you also get N gp equivalent of treasure drops (I think the ratio is non-linear, but I'd have to go back and research that).

Anyway, so what about 4e having a reward system? I think that would be a nice idea. It certainly would make some styles of play much easier! I know we've touched on "just bend the rules on parcels", which is not a terrible point, but its always nice if there were something built into the game. I mean, nowadays that's kinda moot since 4e is over, but from a perspective of someone analyzing the game and how to design similar games it certainly has some relevance.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?524844-Martial-Practice-Blood-Demand/page7#ixzz4ZuJbGdhj

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While I don't yet have any clear ideas for the how and what yet, I do wonder if this otherwise neglected and largely incomprehensible table might not serve as the mechanical bounds for such development:

Pocket Change
It’s sometimes useful to know how much money a character might typically have on hand. The table below gives minor and major purchase values (in gp) for a character of a given level. A character can make a minor purchase with the monetary treasure he or she might earn in a single combat encounter, skill challenge, or minor quest. Major purchases are those the character would have to save up for an entire level’s worth of adventuring to afford. A mage’s tower (priced at 10,000 gp) is a major purchase when you’re level 15, but a minor expense when you’re level 22.

Level Minor Major
1 10 144
2 20 208
3 30 271
4 40 336
5 50 400
6 75 720
7 100 1,040
8 125 1,360
9 150 1,680
10 200 2,000
11 350 3,600
12 500 5,200
13 650 6,800
14 800 8,400
15 1,000 10,000
16 1,800 18,000
17 2,600 26,000
18 3,400 34,000
19 4,200 42,000
20 5,000 50,000
21 9,000 90,000
22 13,000 130,000
23 17,000 170,000
24 21,000 210,000
25 25,000 250,000
26 45,000 450,000
27 65,000 650,000
28 85,000 850,000
29 105,000 1,050,000
30 125,000 1,250,000
Published in Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, page(s) 127.

My idea of explicit karma ie "The wages of heroism and generosity" seems part of this

Huh, I'd totally forgotten MME has that little section. I use a similar rule in HoML. In fact in that game I simply made a very basic chart that shows for each range of levels what constitutes meaningful and trivial expenditures, and what would constitute something so large as to be a major boon (IE count as a parcel essentially and require the character to do something to achieve it). While I didn't go so far as to make wealth abstract (like say d6 systems or the old Top Secret do) the idea there was to make the link between level and wealth much looser.

So you could do the same thing using this chart or something like it. I'd actually like to see a less granular version I think, more like what I made for my game. That would have say an entry for each 5 level half-tier and maybe show the size range of a parcel, the threshold for pocket change, and the threshold for major expense. Everything in the middle comes out of your GPs in the normal way. Pocket Change is just ignored, and Major Expense has to be achieved in some narrative fashion (gift from a patron, recovery of a huge treasure horde, etc.)

I'm not sure if that would fully address the 'Need a reward system in 4e' or not. I mean, AD&D's reward system is VERY strong. Its also very explicit. If you go to dungeon level 2 you get bigger treasures (because level 2 has more higher level monsters and they draw from better rows on the treasure table). Is the explicit nature of this arrangement key? And if so is there a way to make something equally explicit happen in 4e? Finally I would observe that even in AD&D this arrangement was not applicable to 'wilderness' adventures, which don't clearly have a dungeon level equivalent (although DMs are somewhat encouraged to make different wilderness areas more or less dangerous, which would be analogous).

AbdulAlhazred said:

Huh, I'd totally forgotten MME has that little section.

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OK is this a book for my purchases list?

Garthanos said:

OK is this a book for my purchases list?

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Sure. Consider it a reward of 4e.

Garthanos said:

OK is this a book for my purchases list?

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MME is a great book. Its basically "items redone" for 4e. In essence it is what the AV1 and AV2 would have been if they'd been written later in the 4e cycle. TBH I think a few of the things in it are silly, like the newer armor rules, which we never bothered with, but it covers a lot of solid ground. The items are generally a little better thought out, cover a wider range of options, etc.

If WotC had published a hypothetical '4.5e' then its item book would have looked a lot like MME with maybe a few bits pruned out and a few things from AV1/2 rolled into it. As it stands it isn't a vital book to have, and AV1 still covers some topics you'd want to have, but its worth reading.

What about non-material rewards? I have often wondered if you could have a reputation/honour system built into 4e, where higher reputation for a given PC give bonuses to dealing with relevant organisations and access resources at higher level.

Raith5 said:

What about non-material rewards? I have often wondered if you could have a reputation/honour system built into 4e, where higher reputation for a given PC give bonuses to dealing with relevant organisations and access resources at higher level.

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One was presented in Dragon for use with Oriental themed characters. There was nothing particularly restricting who could use it though. Other obvious uses would be perhaps certain societies in a particular campaign, maybe something like Eladrin nobles, or some barbarian tribes or something that have particularly rigid systems of behavior. Obviously it would be something that would need to be pretty universally applicable to characters in a particular game. Honestly, you could pretty much construe most pre-modern societies as having some sort of variation of this kind of thing. Medieval knights, etc. So you could just use it generally, though I'd create specific variations for different groups.

You could probably lift most of the system that exists in the original 1e OA too, it isn't really all that arcane, its just a list of specific things that cause a change in honor and a framework for what happens if it goes too low, or benefits of it being unusually high. IIRC in OA there were also character classes that were exempt (priests of various types IIRC) and some different variations on the core mechanism for things like Yakuza (thieves) and Wu-Jen (wizards).

As to it being a non-material rewards system. Yes, it could be. That would probably mean you'd want to avoid consequences for having a low honor, but that's more a philosophical design kind of thing than mechanically necessary. In any case, most of the rewards/penalties are likely to be situational RP ones. You'd probably want to also develop a bit stronger system of loyalty checks and such (I did this in HoML although I never tried to implement honor).

AbdulAlhazred said:

OK, so, we were taking up [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] Blood Demand thread with the topic of rewards in 4e and the dearth of mechanisms for them. My conclusion was that treasure doesn't work as a reward in 4e (Well, it was [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s as well to be fair, maybe everyone's). Is there something that DOES work, or how would such a thing be appended to the game? Would it require an actual reworking of 4e itself?

This was my last post on the other thread, so maybe that is a starting point.

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By Rewards, we're talking about Reward Cycles, as in the positive feedback loop that is a staple of indie design, yes?

If so, 4e basically has three:

1) The Milestone mechanic rewards players for pushing the pace (which synergizes with Encounter-based recharge).

2) The Quest system rewards players for advocating for their PCs thematic portfolio.

3) XP on both success and failure in Skill Challenges. However, there is some incoherency here as a legit Reward Cycle due to it not being proportionately a big enough carrot vs the story loss incurred. Contrast with Dogs in the Vineyard (where Fallout from conflicts is one of the two means of character growth) and Burning Wheel/Dungeon World (where failure is a primary source of PC growth).

Strike! has cool Reward Cycles but the machinery is so different from 4e, that translating it/grafting it isn't remotely worth the trouble imo (Invoking/allowing your Complication to generate a Twist and, in turn, gaining an Action Point - different than 4e - is very Cortex+ or Fate). However, I think basically porting the Dungeon World xp system wholesale would be trivially done. For instance:

a) 4e's Quest system is basically the Dungeon World analogue for Bonds and Alignment. Write down a simple statement of ethos such as "eschew a convention of the civilized world." If you fulfill it during the session, mark 1 xp. For 4e, this should be hooked into Theme, Paragon Path, and Epic Destiny. Bonds are just relationship statements. If you resolve one during a session, mark 1 xp.

Alternatively, you could keep the Alignment statement and trade out the Bonds for Theme/Paragon Path/Epic Destiny Quests (if intraparty relationships/conflicts aren't meant to be a thing in your game)

b) All the PCs mark 1 xp if they lose a conflict (fail to protect a Minionized NPC during combat, failure to stop a Ritual, failure to unite the clans against a barbaric horde, etc). This is the equivalent of rolling 6- and marking xp.

c) The DW End of Session could basically port directly over:

End of Session
When you reach the end of a session, choose one of your bonds that you feel is resolved (completely explored, no longer relevant, or otherwise). Ask the player of the character you have the bond with if they agree. If they do, mark XP and write a new bond with whomever you wish.

Once bonds have been updated look at your alignment. If you fulfilled that alignment at least once this session, mark XP. Then answer these three questions as a group:

Did we learn something new and important about the world?
Did we overcome a notable monster or enemy?
Did we loot a memorable treasure?

For each “yes” answer everyone marks XP.

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Because treasure is basically a part of PC build in 4e, you could remove that one. Or, you could keep it and it would only apply to Artifacts.

If you want to further encourage stunting (beyond always "saying yes" to genre logic, including lots of stuff to interact with/riff off of, and being consistent in your application of the rules), simply include the statement:

Did you pull off a cool stunt?

Leveling up would work the same as DW (save for the specifics of character advancement.

Level Up
When you have downtime (hours or days) and XP equal to (or greater than) your current level+7, you can reflect on your experiences and hone your skills.

Subtract your current level+7 from your XP.
Increase your level by 1.

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Can easily adjust the "current level+7 from your XP" to generate a different xp pace. Overall, should work well, and the Milestone mechanic is still there to push the pace.