D&D 4E Rewards in 4e

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
OK there are two ways one can do higher risk scenarios one is when the encounter is explicitly designed that way (it really seems a trivial change to just set the treasure levels based on encounter levels with times where the DM swaps that out so its not 100 percent predictable) and the implications. Why would people bicker about that (doesnt really want to know)

And the other is like as milestones point out the situation is more dangerous because the party pushes on heroically because this situation needs done (plot push and similar reasons)

My question is do people feel milestones are doing their job?
 
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OK there are two ways one can do higher risk scenarios one is when the encounter is explicitly designed that way (it really seems a trivial change to just set the treasure levels based on encounter levels with times where the DM swaps that out so its not 100 percent predictable) and the implications. Why would people bicker about that (doesnt really want to know)

Part of the issue is what is defined as 'risk' in 4e? I touched on this before. 4e isn't about death vs treasure. Risk in 4e should be something else. It might be moral risk, or plot failure risk, resource risk, or even existential risk. Character death isn't off the table entirely, but its largely a plot device in 4e. You could certainly pose a scenario where a character can choose to risk his life for treasure, but its likely to be posed more in terms of being something like a moral risk (IE die and the ones who love and depend on you suffer, succeed and you can care for them in a better fashion, but are you REALLY worried about them, or yourself?)


And the other is like as milestones point out the situation is more dangerous because the party pushes on heroically because this situation needs done (plot push and similar reasons)

My question is do people feel milestones are doing their job?

Hmmmm, are milestones doing their job? I thought they were a bit anemic. Originally you got an AP and an extra daily item use. Daily item use was made obsolete, leaving only the AP (and ring benefits, something that has been largely eschewed by the system from what I can see).

So, my feeling is the AP is certainly worth getting, but it isn't enough on its own. I would say this should be the most baseline milestone, with most real adventures adding plot elements and some variable added mechanical benefit.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Hmmmm, are milestones doing their job? I thought they were a bit anemic. Originally you got an AP and an extra daily item use. Daily item use was made obsolete, leaving only the AP (and ring benefits, something that has been largely eschewed by the system from what I can see).

So, my feeling is the AP is certainly worth getting, but it isn't enough on its own. I would say this should be the most baseline milestone, with most real adventures adding plot elements and some variable added mechanical benefit.

I think I could use a milestone as a basis for awarding more Karma Points...

It seems inappropriate to reward "normal treasure" like its a higher level but adding the abstract reward in could work.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Part of the issue is what is defined as 'risk' in 4e? I touched on this before. 4e isn't about death vs treasure. Risk in 4e should be something else. It might be moral risk, or plot failure risk, resource risk, or even existential risk. Character death isn't off the table entirely, but its largely a plot device in 4e. You could certainly pose a scenario where a character can choose to risk his life for treasure, but its likely to be posed more in terms of being something like a moral risk (IE die and the ones who love and depend on you suffer, succeed and you can care for them in a better fashion, but are you REALLY worried about them, or yourself?)

Werent you the one talking about old fashioned rewards? and hence I assumed old fashioned risk definitions



I mean the value of using that gold on expendables is to overcome old fashioned obstacles.... with less potential problems or implications
 
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3) SCs (encounter rewards generally we could say) - Well, odd that you mention Strike! and invoking/allowing a complication, as I actually constructed such a mechanic for my HoML experimentation. I don't see ANY reason it wouldn't work in 4e. You create a 'character attribute' and you can generate 'inspiration' by playing against it, or generate 'advantage' by spending said 'inspiration'. It seems to work a lot better than 5e's version, which I didn't find to be very engaging. I'm still a bit fuzzy in my design on the details of what the 'advantage' is, it could literally be advantage (roll 2d20 take the best one) but I think allowing a favorable plot twist or something a bit bigger than a mere tweak to die roll is OK. This could also translate to permanent rewards via some simple narrative magic, you spend inspiration and create a new magic item, monetary reward, etc.

Just going to spell out some Strike! terms for folks following along who don't understand. Then some commentary.

Twist - You may have been successful at your task (or you may have not), but things have gone wrong in an interesting way. The situation has changed dynamically and better address it or things will escalate.

Complication - These are PC build traits. They cause trouble for your character, but they're always good for you as player. This is because:

1) Adversity is guaranteed in Strike! (like Dungeon World, 4e, etc). The game is centered around action and adventure always being present. Every situation has obstacles and every situation will escalate either vertically (escalation of present circumstances) or horizontally (situation changes with new adversity). Play snowballs. Typically the GM, the dice, and the fundamental resolution procedures + play principles determine how all that stuff comes about. However, Complications are player-exclusive features to be deployed, allowing them to decide when and where that adversity comes about! GMs don't get a say!

2) So players use their Complications in moments where the stakes might be lower (or they're ok with some mild, or perhaps worse, story fallout as a result) to generate Twists. Complication-generated Twists earn the player Action Points (these are more different and more versatile than 4e Action Points - use your Tricks or get Advantage on a Skill roll out of combat or activate your Rally or Role Trigger ability in combat) to spend now to address the present situation or to pocket for the future.

3) So this Reward Cycle allows players highly functional Director Stance abilities to shape the narrative. You fail (generating or escalating adversity) when they want to and accrue assets to succeed when it truly matters to you.




There are already system-embedded ways to make offers to players in Skill Challenges, albeit they are neither integrated into the PC build system nor are they cross-encounter. I run completely orthodox RC Skill Challenges. So a Level 6, Complexity 3 Skill Challenge is going to feature:

a) 8 Primary Skill successes required before 3 Primary Skill failures.
b) 3 Secondary Skills at the Easy DC of 11 for a +2 bonus on (typically) the next Primary Skill.
c) 2 Advantages that can be deployed (typically to lower a DC by one step or * for success against a hard DC counting as 2 successes; 1 against hard and 1 against medium).
d) 6 moderate DCs (15), 2 hard DCs (23).

I use all the DMG2 adjudications for Rituals, Dailies, spending GP to earn successes, etc. Pretty standard. The only regular flourish I use is that I'll sometimes offer a player the ability to raise the stakes (the DC from medium to high) for 2 successes. This is the equivalent of the * usage of Advantages in (c) above except I make the offer rather than the player.

* above is kind of a "poor man's" Strike! Complication mechanics. "Poor man" because of it isn't contingent on PC build (from a systemization perspective) and because it doesn't create a dynamic, metagame asset economy; (i) the feedback loop is instantaneously resolved (you can't pocket a variable-use asset for later or even cross-conflict expenditure) and (ii) it isn't fundamentally integrated (although it is likely to be associated, because the player is going to be deploying this in situations where they can leverage their archetypal specialties - eg Athletics for Fighters or Arcana for Wizards) into PC build mechanics.

Strike! 's Complication > Action Point dynamic on play could be integrated into 4e, but it would require quite a bit of retrofitting. You would either need to completely tear-down and rebuild Action Points (integrating them coherently into both the noncombat and combat resolution mechanics) or you would need to leave them as-is and come up with a new metagame token for 4e. Further, Complications generate Twists. The 4e derivative would be a micro-failure in a Skill Challenge, so that would need to be taken into consideration.




As a completely unrelated aside, there is another "Reward" that I use in 4e regularly. Companion Characters. These can be skinned as all manner of things from Hirelings to Animal Companions to NPC Squads to Intelligent Weapons to Primal Spirits. The wonderful thing here is:

- They can go from actual mechanics to background color at a moment's notice (in my last 1-30 game, all 3 PCs had a Companion Character). For handling time minimization, a table rule of 1 Companion per combat works easily enough. If the PCs have a stable of Companions, this gives them some fiat capability + interesting tactical overhead in deciding which Companion they want to deploy (based on the dynamics of the encounter).

- 4e's beautiful encounter budgeting makes this a cinch from a GM perspective. If the Companion is a Standard, add an extra Standard worth of XP. If its a Minion, do likewise. Balance secured with no real addition to cognitive workload.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Reminds me quite a bit of FATE.... aspects being importable but generally most useful if a system doesnt define characters quite as detailed as D&D currently does
 

Nagol

Unimportant
I'm going to muse in text for a couple of minutes. This is stuff readers of this thread have already considered in all likelihood.

First a couple of assumptions are necessary to restrict the reward domain:
  • the reward is presented to the character and not directly to the player so simple bennies like rerolls/auto success tokens or chocolate chip cookies given to the players for interesting play don't count
  • the reward should be persistent across scenes and not just be a modifier available in the current encounter so scene combat modifiers and unlocking special actions don't count
  • any form of reward is going to affect gameplay either by altering breadth, capacity, or amplitude of abilities the character can project so offering cosmetic variations (an empty title, odd hair colour, whatever) don't count. Note that this category can and does spur some players to action, but the segment tends to be small.

Character rewards in 4e suffer in much the same way character rewards in superheroic games suffer: the capabilities of the character are by-and-large internal so it is hard to offer shiny baubles the player would strive for. By internal I mean either directly provided and powered by the character OR presented by a predictable mechanism in the game engine like the parcel system.

So a reward is likely to take the form of externalized secondary abilities the character can call on. There are a bunch of likely suspects that fit the base genre. In no particular order we have:
  • Additional Magic Items -- extra items in excess of the parcel system but deliberately more varied with the intent to broaden rather than deepen capability. Consumable items would be preferred so as to not to accumulate and clutter the character sheet over time.
  • Granted powers -- extra daily/.encounter/at-will power that offers interesting options. The power could be granted through reaching an inaccessible location, from a powerful patron, or mystical experience. Consumable or limited duration powers would be preferred so as to not to accumulate and clutter the character sheet over time.
  • Allies -- those who willingly provide their capabilities at the PCs direction.
  • Social perquisites -- extra "abilities" nominally gained inside civilisation typically awarded as part of entitlement or assuming specific roles in society such as arrest powers, dispensing low justice, troop command, etc. The use of these abilities is limited to those territories where deference is given which can be a real problem for 4e play, especially as the character become more 'mythic' in scope..

[edit clicked in the wrong place before finishing my post]

4e suffers from having all characters able to access more generic genre-appropriate capability (stunting, page 42, etc.) This directly attacks providing powers/abilities as rewards since the group could plausibly achieve a similar result without gaining the reward.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Just going to spell out some Strike! terms for folks following along who don't understand. Then some commentary.

Twist - You may have been successful at your task (or you may have not), but things have gone wrong in an interesting way. The situation has changed dynamically and better address it or things will escalate.

Complication - These are PC build traits. They cause trouble for your character, but they're always good for you as player. This is because:

1) Adversity is guaranteed in Strike! (like Dungeon World, 4e, etc). The game is centered around action and adventure always being present. Every situation has obstacles and every situation will escalate either vertically (escalation of present circumstances) or horizontally (situation changes with new adversity). Play snowballs. Typically the GM, the dice, and the fundamental resolution procedures + play principles determine how all that stuff comes about. However, Complications are player-exclusive features to be deployed, allowing them to decide when and where that adversity comes about! GMs don't get a say!

2) So players use their Complications in moments where the stakes might be lower (or they're ok with some mild, or perhaps worse, story fallout as a result) to generate Twists. Complication-generated Twists earn the player Action Points (these are more different and more versatile than 4e Action Points - use your Tricks or get Advantage on a Skill roll out of combat or activate your Rally or Role Trigger ability in combat) to spend now to address the present situation or to pocket for the future.

3) So this Reward Cycle allows players highly functional Director Stance abilities to shape the narrative. You fail (generating or escalating adversity) when they want to and accrue assets to succeed when it truly matters to you.




There are already system-embedded ways to make offers to players in Skill Challenges, albeit they are neither integrated into the PC build system nor are they cross-encounter. I run completely orthodox RC Skill Challenges. So a Level 6, Complexity 3 Skill Challenge is going to feature:

a) 8 Primary Skill successes required before 3 Primary Skill failures.
b) 3 Secondary Skills at the Easy DC of 11 for a +2 bonus on (typically) the next Primary Skill.
c) 2 Advantages that can be deployed (typically to lower a DC by one step or * for success against a hard DC counting as 2 successes; 1 against hard and 1 against medium).
d) 6 moderate DCs (15), 2 hard DCs (23).

I use all the DMG2 adjudications for Rituals, Dailies, spending GP to earn successes, etc. Pretty standard. The only regular flourish I use is that I'll sometimes offer a player the ability to raise the stakes (the DC from medium to high) for 2 successes. This is the equivalent of the * usage of Advantages in (c) above except I make the offer rather than the player.

* above is kind of a "poor man's" Strike! Complication mechanics. "Poor man" because of it isn't contingent on PC build (from a systemization perspective) and because it doesn't create a dynamic, metagame asset economy; (i) the feedback loop is instantaneously resolved (you can't pocket a variable-use asset for later or even cross-conflict expenditure) and (ii) it isn't fundamentally integrated (although it is likely to be associated, because the player is going to be deploying this in situations where they can leverage their archetypal specialties - eg Athletics for Fighters or Arcana for Wizards) into PC build mechanics.

Strike! 's Complication > Action Point dynamic on play could be integrated into 4e, but it would require quite a bit of retrofitting. You would either need to completely tear-down and rebuild Action Points (integrating them coherently into both the noncombat and combat resolution mechanics) or you would need to leave them as-is and come up with a new metagame token for 4e. Further, Complications generate Twists. The 4e derivative would be a micro-failure in a Skill Challenge, so that would need to be taken into consideration.




As a completely unrelated aside, there is another "Reward" that I use in 4e regularly. Companion Characters. These can be skinned as all manner of things from Hirelings to Animal Companions to NPC Squads to Intelligent Weapons to Primal Spirits. The wonderful thing here is:

- They can go from actual mechanics to background color at a moment's notice (in my last 1-30 game, all 3 PCs had a Companion Character). For handling time minimization, a table rule of 1 Companion per combat works easily enough. If the PCs have a stable of Companions, this gives them some fiat capability + interesting tactical overhead in deciding which Companion they want to deploy (based on the dynamics of the encounter).

- 4e's beautiful encounter budgeting makes this a cinch from a GM perspective. If the Companion is a Standard, add an extra Standard worth of XP. If its a Minion, do likewise. Balance secured with no real addition to cognitive workload.


Thanks for the elaboration
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The only regular flourish I use is that I'll sometimes offer a player the ability to raise the stakes (the DC from medium to high) for 2 successes. This is the equivalent of the * usage of Advantages in (c) above except I make the offer rather than the player.

That right there I really like it plucks the players gamblers strings which is something that isnt always encouraged these days.
 

Reminds me quite a bit of FATE.... aspects being importable but generally most useful if a system doesnt define characters quite as detailed as D&D currently does

Yup. Very similar mechanically except unlike PS Aspects in Fate, Complications (a) can't be compelled by a GM and (b) GMs don't have the final say (or any really).

Thanks for the elaboration

You bet!

That right there I really like it plucks the players gamblers strings which is something that isnt always encouraged these days.

I do too. Systems and techniques that hook into fundamental behaviors and emotions of players (like "plucking the gambler strings" as you put it) are the best kind imo.
 

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