D&D 4E Weekly Wrecana - Social Challenges (another 6 part)

Rolenet

Explorer
I like the take on lying - I never thought about that.
But there's a couple things I don't get:

* Wrecan insists on adapting the challenge to the PC's strengths. That's odd. I know my players wouldn't want to feel like a social challenge is easy/hard because they, as a team, choose to be bad/good at social challenges. If bad, they'll expect to find other ways. If good, they expect to make it easily!

* Lengthy discussions. 10 min per roll seems awfully long with 3-10 success required: that's 30 min to more than 90 min of arguing!

* One roll system. Surprising. The way I do it is ask for a single roll (from the main talker) and Aid rolls from other (being rather accomodating on possible skills). It's always a hard check (very similar to Wrecan's DC: 20+1/2 lvl + 1/tier). Aid other is always moderate (15+1/2 lvl), but a Hard aid check can also yield bonus info.
All in all, it's similar to Wrecan's method, but retains the normal mechanics, whih is the issue with his proposal.
 

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To my thinking Wrecan does have a misfire in this.

Pathos, is charisma based, Logos is Intelligence based it is the root word of logic for crying out loud and Ethos is Wisdom based.

That D&D tends to ply influence as only Charisma is mayhaps not entirely appropriate.

Also Propaganda can be incredibly powerful though and deception can convince people when truth they do not want to hear will not.

I think you have to ask "what is Charisma?" It isn't looks, or being able to smooth talk. Its an intellectual sort of ability. It has to do with identifying with others and being able to work with them, or at least get them to do what you want. I think it adequately represents a logical argument, in some degree.

Anyway, I don't really agree with Wrecan's 'problem' here with Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate. His example about the gnolls was somewhat contrived, and it disregarded that 4e conflict resolution isn't a matter of a single check using a single skill. Sure, the guy with the high Bluff might be a better liar than diplomat. That doesn't make lying a viable option, and it doesn't mean Bluff SHOULD work in that situation. Nor do all characters need to be equally equipped to handle every skill challenge. Ideally they CAN contribute in some way, but the whole thing about 'Impress the king with my Endurance!' is silly. First of all, maybe that does make sense once in a while. Secondly, nobody has nothing but Endurance to work with, even dumb low WIS fighters have 3 good skills! And what if you really just have very little to contribute today? Its an SC, it will have about 10 die rolls in it. That's like one round of combat. Nobody is drastically shortchanged if they sit out a round of combat, happens all the time.

I think there's some useful advice here. OTOH when I tried to lay out social SCs like this, it failed miserably. For one thing I don't believe in narrowly framing most challenges, I would include a wider scope within the SC, to include planning, etc. within it. That way there's always going to be more of a variety of ways to deal with things.

Take the "Pet My Labyrinth" example of Wrecan's. Surely there's more ways to get into the catacombs than the front door! Surely if there are embarrassing things about the king, there's also more than one way to use that! Here's the real point. When you rigidly structure a challenge like this, with narrowly defined skills and approaches, you just create a mini-railroad. There's BASICALLY one way to do these examples. That means either the DM has to use force to get the party to do them that way, OR he's got to throw out his work when they don't, because no party I know of veteran players is going to do what you expect in this sort of situation. You need to take a much more flexible approach. I think Wrecan would see that too, but when you write about SCs its very easy to get way to academic about it, and write these little dry nugget things that you can't run as written.
 

I like the take on lying - I never thought about that.

This is one of the more interesting parts, yes.

So, in my terms at least, I would say that you could argue for Bluff checks to be more difficult, unless they play to some sort of existing fear or misconception of the target, but he's right, the payoff is you can try a much wider variety of things. So its an interesting point.
 

I like the take on lying - I never thought about that.
But there's a couple things I don't get:

* Wrecan insists on adapting the challenge to the PC's strengths. That's odd. I know my players wouldn't want to feel like a social challenge is easy/hard because they, as a team, choose to be bad/good at social challenges. If bad, they'll expect to find other ways. If good, they expect to make it easily!

* Lengthy discussions. 10 min per roll seems awfully long with 3-10 success required: that's 30 min to more than 90 min of arguing!

* One roll system. Surprising. The way I do it is ask for a single roll (from the main talker) and Aid rolls from other (being rather accomodating on possible skills). It's always a hard check (very similar to Wrecan's DC: 20+1/2 lvl + 1/tier). Aid other is always moderate (15+1/2 lvl), but a Hard aid check can also yield bonus info.
All in all, it's similar to Wrecan's method, but retains the normal mechanics, whih is the issue with his proposal.

I'd never want to besmirch the fine fellow's record/legacy, but I do have similar disagreements here.

I know this is probably crazy (and sounding brutally hypocritical from me), but I think a lot of this is a bit too analytically steeped.

4e's basic principles and general noncombat conflict resolution techniques are sufficient to handle the workload of Social Skill Challenges:

1) Go to the action. In this case that is conflict-charged social disputes with high stakes.

2) Identify any and all potential obstacles to the PCs' goals, introduce them as the fiction and mechanics warrant, and play them to the hilt. Social obstacles aren't just one NPC's obstinance. It can be a myriad of things beyond that (an as-of-yet unidentified need that requires fulfilling, their relationships to people/places/ideology, who/what is ultimately pulling the strings, the situation's temporal or spatial dynamics, the situation's greater context)

3) Change the situation. Success means to introduce a new obstacle but keep the urgency status quo. Failure means to either introduce a new obstacle or significantly escalate the threat/opposition of an existing obstacle, but always up the urgency/desperation.

4) Failure is not an endpoint. Ultimately, if the PCs lose the challenge, interesting stuff needs to happen. The trajectory of play might change, but the action cannot stall (certain options might close, but a new decision-tree emerges).

Personally, I don't think the following is good advice:

a) Tailor the challenge to the group's build dynamics. Now definitely consider the prior fiction and identify the PCs' thematic interests (typically signalled by build), but don't artificially constrain the obstacles you introduce because of group build dynamics. Consider how stale the combat analogue would be (eg never use Obstacle and Y-axis protected Artillery because the group isn't synergized for mobility or ranged attacks).

b) Belaboring the action by excessive dialogue/expository monologue.

c) Constructing a Skill Challenge in advance. I know this is a thing, but I don't feel it is particularly helpful to current or burgeoning GMs. Learn to improvise better. Follow your principles. Practice your craft/techniques. Prep light but more nimbly/functional (perhaps always have a set of flashcards with coherent and broad obstacles for various conflicts - Social (including things like Exorcisms) and all the various Exploration related ones; Chases, Perilous Journeys, Infiltration/Intel Gathering Operations, etc.

More prep is never the better answer because it isn't as functional for actual play; you may never use that material, you'll be more inclined to deploy Force to ensure that material sees play, you're increasing your out-of-game overhead just to play at all, and (as importantly as the rest) you're either atrophying your current ability to be nimble/improvise during play or you aren't growing it.
 

darkbard

Legend
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], yours is an analysis that crystallizes some of my initial reactions against Wrecan's framework: it works against the flexibility of the "modern" skill challenge structure (i.e., post DMG 2, really Rules Compendium version). Thanks for taking the time to give this some deeper thought and articulate it here.

That said, we've exchanged posts in the past weeks about your proposal of practicing skill challenges and similar substystems, by which I assume you mean the DM should spend some time alone, proposing possible scenarios and then working on how the PC group may engage the scenarios prior to gaming sessions with the group. How do you see this differing from the kind of preparation Wrecan proposes above? Is it simply a matter of kind and not of degree, with regard to time invested? That is to say, that the DM should practice a fictional scenario that does not directly relate to her current game scenario? That is, preparation in the abstract? On one level, I like this possibility, for it doesn't handcuff the DM into preconveived outcomes, but I'm not entirely sure how one might go about it!

In any event, just some rambling thoughts spurred by your critique....
 

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], yours is an analysis that crystallizes some of my initial reactions against Wrecan's framework: it works against the flexibility of the "modern" skill challenge structure (i.e., post DMG 2, really Rules Compendium version). Thanks for taking the time to give this some deeper thought and articulate it here.

That said, we've exchanged posts in the past weeks about your proposal of practicing skill challenges and similar substystems, by which I assume you mean the DM should spend some time alone, proposing possible scenarios and then working on how the PC group may engage the scenarios prior to gaming sessions with the group. How do you see this differing from the kind of preparation Wrecan proposes above? Is it simply a matter of kind and not of degree, with regard to time invested? That is to say, that the DM should practice a fictional scenario that does not directly relate to her current game scenario? That is, preparation in the abstract? On one level, I like this possibility, for it doesn't handcuff the DM into preconveived outcomes, but I'm not entirely sure how one might go about it!

In any event, just some rambling thoughts spurred by your critique....

Hey darkbard.

As to the first, thank you :)

As to the second, when I say practice things like noncombat conflict resolution I mean act like its a sport. Sports training is all about (a) technique/fundamentals honing and (b) simulating game situations.

In D&D 4e terms that means simply:

1) Grab some buddies.
2) Have them whip up some simple characters.
3) Come up with some sort of conflict archetype/trope ("Hey, lets do a city rooftop chase because a masked man has just pilfered the intelligence we were about to nab and has climbed out of the window!").
4) GM frames the PCs right into the action, goes over the mechanics (Level x, Complexity 2 Skill Challenge; 6 successes before 3 failures, 2 Secondary Skills, 0 Advantages, 5 medium DCs and 1 hard DC), places appropriates mechanical markers on the table (I would place a D6 on 6 and a d4 on 3 and just have a couple of tokens for SS usage), and puts the heat on one or more players.
5) Action(s) declared and resolved.
6) Change the situation until the scene is won or lost.
7) Describe the (mechanical and fictional) fallout.

Rinse/repeat.

Everyone gets better at their craft by working on their technique/fundamentals and doing it while simulating game situations.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
My takeaway from this, and what I really like, is articulating the obstacles clearly. It's not a coincidence that the # of obstacles presented for each challenge equals the number of successes "required" to complete the challenge successfully. What's great about that is it ties the rolls to the narrative, minimizing a common issue of "narrative dissonance"/"abstraction" that can creep in to skill challenges run by an inexperienced GM (or just a tired/surprised GM).

I wish I had an old file which I lost when my old laptop died. It was my take on a social skill challenge involving negotiating with a corrupt baron in order to get his aid against a group of rebellious fey. A lot more to it, but that's the TL;DR version.

Basically, I designed it like this...

The Baron would pose about 8 questions for the PCs to answer. Depending on how they answer each question, that may count as a success, a failure, or neither. If they have 6 successes by the end of the Baron's questioning, then the Baron agrees to aid them. Each failure means the Baron demands a concession or unfavorable change in terms. If they fail to gain 6 successes, the Baron either turns them away with a humiliating offer to pay them 1 silver piece a day each as mercenaries OR feigns an alliance but really plans to betray them to the rebellious fey to advance his own scheming.

1. Why should I trust you? None of you have sworn fealty to my house. None of your forefathers helped my family when they were in need.
You can score a success on this question of the Baron's by...
  • Making a convincing argument that appeals to the Baron's ambitious nature, having "brought himself up by his bootstraps", and plays up the PCs' past glorious deeds.
  • Making a DC 15 History check to recall information about the Baron's banner that you can use to make an emotional appeal. However, failing this check means yours and the Baron's view of historical events doesn't line up, and you score a failure; move on to the next question.
  • Making a DC 15 Intimidate check implying that if the Baron doesn't enter negotiations with them, they're liable to go to one of his rivals. However, failing this check not only scores a failure but also means the Baron thinks the PCs are just mercenaries trying to browbeat him and decides to teach them a lesson during or immediately after the negotiations. He has an especially vicious cunning streak, so this might be paying them in copper ingots guised by his court illusionist to look like gold, asking for a demonstration of the weakest looking PC's combat ability against his best mercenary Ser Saldigott the Black Knight, etc.
  • If they saved the scout with the peryton heraldry tabard in the woods, they may call him in to report the PCs returning him safely to his unit and speaking on their behalf. The scout happens to be the Baron's nephew! This grants a success, provided the scout was well-treated by the PCs.

And so on for each question.
 

I'd never want to besmirch the fine fellow's record/legacy, but I do have similar disagreements here.

I know this is probably crazy (and sounding brutally hypocritical from me), but I think a lot of this is a bit too analytically steeped.

4e's basic principles and general noncombat conflict resolution techniques are sufficient to handle the workload of Social Skill Challenges:

1) Go to the action. In this case that is conflict-charged social disputes with high stakes.

2) Identify any and all potential obstacles to the PCs' goals, introduce them as the fiction and mechanics warrant, and play them to the hilt. Social obstacles aren't just one NPC's obstinance. It can be a myriad of things beyond that (an as-of-yet unidentified need that requires fulfilling, their relationships to people/places/ideology, who/what is ultimately pulling the strings, the situation's temporal or spatial dynamics, the situation's greater context)

3) Change the situation. Success means to introduce a new obstacle but keep the urgency status quo. Failure means to either introduce a new obstacle or significantly escalate the threat/opposition of an existing obstacle, but always up the urgency/desperation.

4) Failure is not an endpoint. Ultimately, if the PCs lose the challenge, interesting stuff needs to happen. The trajectory of play might change, but the action cannot stall (certain options might close, but a new decision-tree emerges).

Personally, I don't think the following is good advice:

a) Tailor the challenge to the group's build dynamics. Now definitely consider the prior fiction and identify the PCs' thematic interests (typically signalled by build), but don't artificially constrain the obstacles you introduce because of group build dynamics. Consider how stale the combat analogue would be (eg never use Obstacle and Y-axis protected Artillery because the group isn't synergized for mobility or ranged attacks).

b) Belaboring the action by excessive dialogue/expository monologue.

c) Constructing a Skill Challenge in advance. I know this is a thing, but I don't feel it is particularly helpful to current or burgeoning GMs. Learn to improvise better. Follow your principles. Practice your craft/techniques. Prep light but more nimbly/functional (perhaps always have a set of flashcards with coherent and broad obstacles for various conflicts - Social (including things like Exorcisms) and all the various Exploration related ones; Chases, Perilous Journeys, Infiltration/Intel Gathering Operations, etc.

More prep is never the better answer because it isn't as functional for actual play; you may never use that material, you'll be more inclined to deploy Force to ensure that material sees play, you're increasing your out-of-game overhead just to play at all, and (as importantly as the rest) you're either atrophying your current ability to be nimble/improvise during play or you aren't growing it.

Seems like we're in close agreement.

I picked out of this one possible innovation that I'm pretty interested in, so its going into my "ideas and notes" folder. That's making up a 'deck' (could be some charts, though cards seem handy and quick here) of stock factors to add to social challenges. They could take a very general form, so maybe a table something like: (this is just a quick example, not an actual recommedation)

1. Possession - someone or something is possessed. This could be a principle NPC, a relative, an advisor, or even someone in the party!
2. Debt - someone is in debt to someone else. This consideration is factoring into their decision making. It may or may not be obvious or well-known.
3. Spiritual Obligation - someone has an obligation, to perform a ritual, make a sacrifice, refrain from some action, etc which is factoring into their decision making.
4. Ambition - Someone in this situation is dedicated to achieving some difficult goal, such as amassing a fortune, gaining political power, acquiring a new position or office, etc.
5. Prophesy - Some sort of prediction has been made which affects the various participants in the situation and colors their decisions.
6. Enmity - someone hates someone else and this has some effect on the situation.

Now, assuming you had a bit more extensive and perhaps nuanced collection of 'situation cards' like this you could, as the GM, play out a couple of them and quickly generate an interesting scenario around them as needed. You could also do the same thing ahead of time, or at least use the list as a seed for embellishing these scenarios.

A similar technique could work with other sorts of challenge situations. A chase, for example, could easily be quickly embellished with a series of cards that generate obstacles and opportunities. When stated in fairly general terms they should be applicable to most similar situations.

It might be a bit harder to come up with a set for say "general physical challenges" though some thought may still generate a reasonably useful list.

You might also want to provide for a number of variations of each of these for each type of scenario. So there could be curses, prophesies, vendettas, possessions, obligations, etc etc etc drilled down to a couple levels deep. Unusual events could also be factored in, which would be pretty reasonable for a challenge that might span over a period of time (negotiations go on for a week, then there's a peasant uprising and the various parties are suddenly forced to cooperate, which changes the dynamics of the situation and opens up new skills and such).

The primary goal of all of this obviously is to broaden the challenge and give it additional depth so that it is likely to engage more characters and become more dynamic and produce more opportunities for the players to either increase the stakes or cut their losses.
 

darkbard

Legend
The primary goal of all of this obviously is to broaden the challenge and give it additional depth so that it is likely to engage more characters and become more dynamic and produce more opportunities for the players to either increase the stakes or cut their losses.

This seems the key to me to staging good social challenges (or skill challenges, more generally). It's often relatively simple to draw one or two characters into any particular challenge in a way that fosters a clear yet interesting response. Adding the "additional depth," as you term it above that "become more dynamic and produce more opportunities" is what separates a fine gaming episode from a truly exceptional one.
 

This seems the key to me to staging good social challenges (or skill challenges, more generally). It's often relatively simple to draw one or two characters into any particular challenge in a way that fosters a clear yet interesting response. Adding the "additional depth," as you term it above that "become more dynamic and produce more opportunities" is what separates a fine gaming episode from a truly exceptional one.


Right. And sometimes it can be done in a really simple and straightforward manner. I remember an SC where the players had to figure out how to execute a 'ritual'. It was just a series of actions they needed to take in order to accomplish something, but each time they did something, then stuff would happen, and they'd have to use some new skills and logic to deal with the next step. It was great. Seemed a little simple and almost kinda dumb when I set it up, and I felt like I was a little short of good ideas, but the players found that to be a fine setup, every character did stuff, and even when they weren't making a check they were talking about what to do next, asking questions about what happened after their last choice, etc.

Obviously there can be a more intricate plot, particularly in a social challenge, but the same basic kernel of an idea applies, a little miniature 'play' with at least 3 scenes and some internal drama, and you'll have a good SC most of the time.
 

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